LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

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Rocket Frog
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LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:36 pm

Hello.

I open this thread to start a debate about the landmarks.
For a long time the game has remained static in many ways. Buildings, vehicles, machines, and pretty much almost everything was being built to last forever. Many things are still that way, meaning that once some place has reached certain level of development, if abandoned or forgotten, the place would remain just as it has been left, preventing new players from having a new and pristine experience.
Summing to that, maintaining what was achieved costs nothing nowadays.

The new direction the game has been taking for the last year or so is to point into a direction that allows both new players to enjoy the excitement of developing something from scratch, and the rest of the players to modify and shape the world around them. In other words: to allow change.

Following this, landmarks and sarcophagus have been a first material step in that direction, but the mistake here has been probably to not take into account the players opinion about the methods and time for removing them, since they're an important piece of the game's rp.

This is the thread for it, then.

The current method is "default". That means taking them down takes the same time and tools as building them, and they return half the materials invested.

--------------------------

SPANISH/ESPAÑOL:

Hola.

Abro este hilo para comenzar un debate acerca de los hitos.
Por un largo tiempo el juego ha permanecido estático en muchas formas. Construcciones, vehículos, máquinas, y básicamente casi todo era construido para durar por siempre. Muchas cosas son aún de esta forma, significando que una vez que un lugar ha alcanzado cierto nivel de desarrollo, si abandonado u olvidado, el lugar permanecería tal como ha sido dejado, previniendo nuevos jugadores de tener una nueva y prístina experiencia.
Sumando a eso, mantener lo que se ha alcanzado no cuesta nada hoy mismo.

La nueva dirección que el juego ha estado tomando durante el último año o así es apuntar en una dirección que permita a los nuevos jugadores disfrutar de la emoción de desarrollar algo desde cero, y al resto de los jugadores de modificar y moldear el mundo alrededor de ellos. En otras palabras: permitir el cambio.

Siguiendo esto, los hitos y sarcófagos han sido el primer paso material en esa dirección, pero el error ha sido probablemente no tener en cuenta la opinión de los jugadores acerca de los métodos y el tiempo para removerlos, ya que ellos son una pieza importante del rol del juego.

Este hilo es para eso, entonces.

El método actual es "por defecto". Eso significa que derribar los hitos toma el mismo tiempo y herramientas que construirlos, y devuelve la mitad de los materiales invertidos.
Last edited by Rocket Frog on Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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gudgeon
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby gudgeon » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:19 pm

Great iron monument: 100000 grams of iron / 2 / 60 days = 833.33 gram/day, much more profitable than producing iron.

Destroying landmarks should not be more efficient than producing the raw material.
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Rocket Frog
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:23 pm

Maybe reducing returned raws to 30% and extending time to double?
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Alladinsane
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Alladinsane » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:40 pm

what effect will the destruction of these tombstones(as many are) have on those who want to preserve history within the society?
I would miss a few who were very close to my own chars.
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Rocket Frog
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:30 pm

Alladinsane wrote:what effect will the destruction of these tombstones(as many are) have on those who want to preserve history within the society?
I would miss a few who were very close to my own chars.


Landmarks can be kept, but the general way is that anything kept should require someone dedicated to keeping it (and with that, guarding it and dedicating time to it). Sure we could also try to find a way as "gobbo" mentioned on Discord, about making plaques inside buildings and so.

Just for the record, buildings are on the list as things that would be possible of being destroyed and we're working on that. Also ships (most of them are not destroyable right now). So all in all, if someone wants to keep something "alive", some effort should be put.

Right now, only non editable notes are indestructible. I think that should be the way to go maybe if someone wants to leave some indelible mark.
Or to keep the culture and the memory of those who passed away alive.
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Zanthos » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:00 pm

gudgeon wrote:Great iron monument: 100000 grams of iron / 2 / 60 days = 833.33 gram/day, much more profitable than producing iron.

Destroying landmarks should not be more efficient than producing the raw material.

Why not though?

Historically speaking, landmarks have always been destroyed for their raw resources when resources were in demand. The only reason we have Roman statues all over the place is marble is functionally useless for anything other than decoration, where as the Ancient Greek statues were all made of bronze and were melted down basically the second they were needed to make weapons
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Zanthos » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:04 pm

That is not to say my post is in support of wholesale destruction of landmarks. Cantr obviously isn’t real life, and things inherently take longer here. I’d say allow destruction of landmarks, but make it take a long time and be easily disrupted (is it possible to force a project to undo damage?)

Cantr has an incredibly long history, trust me I know I’ve been here off and on for a very long time, but if people want to protect the history then they should need to actually protect it.
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Rocket Frog
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:16 pm

Zanthos wrote:That is not to say my post is in support of wholesale destruction of landmarks. Cantr obviously isn’t real life, and things inherently take longer here. I’d say allow destruction of landmarks, but make it take a long time and be easily disrupted (is it possible to force a project to undo damage?)

Cantr has an incredibly long history, trust me I know I’ve been here off and on for a very long time, but if people want to protect the history then they should need to actually protect it.


Yes. The whole idea is to make it reversible as long as it's not completed, just as tearing down some machine or item. The question is more about time and resources returned.
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gudgeon
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby gudgeon » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:53 am

If landmark destruction is unprofitable, people destroy the ones they find unfit to the location.

If landmark destruction is profitable, the interesting or fitting ones will be destroyed, too.
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Bmot » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:36 am

gudgeon wrote:If landmark destruction is unprofitable, people destroy the ones they find unfit to the location.

If landmark destruction is profitable, the interesting or fitting ones will be destroyed, too.


Looking at it like this, it would make sense to make the return amounts (somewhat) smaller per day of work than it would be for manually producing said resource.
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Rocket Frog
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:30 pm

Truth is we could even make them return nothing at all. Take 1 day or 10. There's no limit. But gudgeon said something interesting there: if we make them return no raws at all people won't mind in taking them down except they happen to have some real interest in removing them, something that might appear as anti-economical but rp worthy.
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Chris
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Chris » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:35 pm

Bmot wrote:Looking at it like this, it would make sense to make the return amounts (somewhat) smaller per day of work than it would be for manually producing said resource.

It's only happening because town after town after town is dead so no one is around to care what happens. Why should anyone care whether Mad Max gets more from salvaging than from mining? It's the end of the world.
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby miirkaelisaar » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:28 pm

I don't like the idea of them just wasting away though.. I had a character build a stone monument basically on their own and is always alone and has no help maintaining things, just wants something here to remember them by when they eventually die. But no one cares about them so now when they die, so will the monument, and it's point, for my character to be allowed to leave a mark on the world forever and prove they were there, is moot now. Another character built a statue to a loved one and left, he can't stay in the town, forever, alone and going insane, to maintain a statue. But now his love and time spent means nothing. I hate that, I understand some landmarks are spammy and annoying, but this is awful, there are ancient landmarks that are all that is left of the past that will be gone and are not in anyone's way. If it is really this important that we reduce the clutter, this should be a moderated issue, like a bug, it should be reported outside the game that someone wants a landmark removed and what their reasoning is in character, and out. Then a programmer should remove the landmark or make the destroy button appear, if that is possible. But both options of just letting anyone destroy a landmark they don't care about, or making landmarks disappear without intervention, ruins a very important part of the game's historical feelings and I'm 100% against that. It should be dealt with like a bug or spam and moderated, not just all lose our hard work to his the few redundant, pointless or spammy signs. That is horrible and not fair.
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Alladinsane
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Alladinsane » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:23 am

I don't think many if any remembers (remove this if it breaks f4day) Zoe the Beard' Robertson' But some may live in the buildings he or related clan constructed... If we plan to recruit old players to this sandbox environ... they may snow up to see that legacy destroyed.

GAB may decide...but I would expect that some destruction will arise from pure schadenfreude some of the late greats who created the best memories might choose not to participate. What happens if a statue of (remove name?) Coventina is hurt...can it be rebuilt? Her influence is indelible.

whatever the great minds decide, I will probably still play and make newer and less lasting memories. :)
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Rocket Frog
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:55 am

I understand the general feeling of those who invested time on erecting landmarks, but really: nothing lasts forever. And making something last forever only because maybe 1 or 2 players still remember, on some place that no one ever visits and that maybe some group of characters want to clean to start again and have a fresh experience... Really, it's a bit of selfish.

Again: I understand the feeling, but I anticipate you that this same fate will be for all probably but notes. The times, the ways, the items involved, etc., etc., are yet to be discussed. And this is the time and the place to agree not on some way to say goodbye to landmarks right now and once for all, but in a way for doing so eventually if someone or group of someones want to remove this or that landmark.

Landmarks can be rebuilt, tho, and we could also introduce some other ways of commemorating people too.
This thread is not to discuss if they will be removable or not, but the conditions. Please.
Just as all of you had the chance of living and playing what you lived and played, please allow others to have the same chances. Your memories and legacy won't be erased as long as you keep if alive in one way or another. And just remembering you: culture is the most powerful and indestructible tool in game.

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