The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

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gudgeon
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The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby gudgeon » Tue May 26, 2020 8:37 am

According to the statistics on the site, English chars and Polish chars each roughly take up 50% of the whole Cantrian population. Seafaring is also a very favored activity in Cantr. I was surprised when I found out there's still not yet an Anglopolski Pidgin coming into being, and there is none Polish loanwords in English speaking population. (I guess there must be English words in Cantrian Polish, but how many of them are not introduced OOCly?)

One of the reasons, as I think, is that many in-game objects are directly imported from real life. New words enter a language often when a new item is introduced to the people. Take the word "sugar" for example: "... from Old French sucre "sugar" (12c.), from Medieval Latin succarum, from Arabic sukkar, from Persian shakar, from Sanskrit sharkara "ground or candied sugar," originally "grit, gravel" (cognate with Greek kroke "pebble"). The Arabic word also was borrowed in Italian (zucchero), Spanish (azucar, with the Arabic article), and German (Old High German zucura, German Zucker), and its forms are represented in most European languages (such as Serbian cukar, Polish cukier, Russian sakhar)". If an object already has a native name, people will not call it by a foreign name (unless there are some specific reasons to do so). English chars just see the physical world in English and do their things, and ignore Polish conversations, because the world is "fully translated" into English!

However, if you visit the Polish continent for the first time, and see a "medium-sized animal with antlers and a trunk", and local people point at it and say "słoń-jeleń", probably you will begin to label it as "słoń-jeleń". And when you come back to the English continent, you will describe the "słoń-jeleń" to your people and probably share with them some "słoń-jeleń" jerky you acquired from the exotic land. And then other English chars will omit the dots and lines and just call that type of animal "slonjelen". A new word enters Cantrian English.

The need to name new things, opens opportunity for importing new words from other languages, as well as generating unique, indigenious ways of speech (dialects). Should Cantr have more "unnamed" items unique to their location, waiting to be named in IC way, and less items directly imported from real life, the interaction of different Cantrian languages would probably be more interesting.

This however is not a suggestion. As I understand, Cantr is not a fantasy setting, and only includes real life objects. This is just my thought on a possible reason why the linguistic interaction is so minimal in Cantr. I'd also like to hear opinions on this topic from the players who have been playing for years and have witnessed the rise and fall of various language groups.
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DylPickle
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby DylPickle » Tue May 26, 2020 11:02 am

It would be really cool, but in practice players failed to even label other languages consistently in game, and just defaulted to the English word for the languages. This was different early on, and I remember there were two other names for Polish that were based in game (that I saw), but I can't remember them.

I think it's particularly hard for EZ players, because it's much more likely for a Polish player to know at least some English, than for an English speaking player to know any Polish at all.
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gudgeon
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby gudgeon » Tue May 26, 2020 1:39 pm

The dynamic location name certainly creates a sense of history. When you arrive at a town with a guide of an old map and find it's name has changed hundreds of years ago, or the town is now completely deserted and only the old landmark stands lonely on the town plaza, you can feel the history that really happened here, and know that all the involved characters were real people.

One of the most complete map is in Polish. It is as if in an alternate universe Polish explorers instead of Spaniard or Portuguese discovered the new world.
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Rocket Frog
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby Rocket Frog » Tue May 26, 2020 3:35 pm

I think that happens mostly when there's a word in the other language that yours lacks of. Some meanings, concepts, ideas.

I live IRL in a very poor county for example where a big chunk of the community is color people, and lately (the last 15 or so years) we got a good influx of latin people who came from Florida and other places around. Some of my school companions were latin.
Thinking about the loanwords, I was discussing this the other day with my bf. Why the japaneses call the fox "kitsune" but the penguin is penguin, and it comes to that you only name things some way when you don't have the proper words in your language already or either you want to use some special meaning from a word that you already have but in the other language it sounds and feels different.

With polish, I personally tried to learn some and get the language's mechanics, but it feels so foreigner to me that after tried a bit I just gave up. Can't get it. And I don't have a true need of it. And so fat there's no concept in polish I'm aware of that interests me or even I need.
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby Millhouse » Tue May 26, 2020 7:21 pm

It happens to an extent but it seems only rare. I had a character that called ostriches strusie because that's how he was introduced to them. The word strusie actually did catch on a bit in the English zones. That's really the only example I can think of though.
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby Chroma Key » Tue May 26, 2020 7:28 pm

Millhouse wrote:It happens to an extent but it seems only rare. I had a character that called ostriches strusie because that's how he was introduced to them. The word strusie actually did catch on a bit in the English zones. That's really the only example I can think of though.


I was just about to post about the strusies, haha. It was thanks to a certain sleepy Captain, who had spent a lot of time in the Polish zone and picked up the name from the locals, as he hadn't seen an ostrich before. It was fun.
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby Snickie » Tue May 26, 2020 11:25 pm

I was able to do this when my Spanish character learned English, partially because I understood both languages enough to do that. But none of my characters (except for my Spanish character who was completely overwhelmed) ever spent enough time with the Polish to pick up any pidgin.
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gudgeon
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby gudgeon » Wed May 27, 2020 2:31 am

Rocket Frog wrote:Why the japaneses call the fox "kitsune" but the penguin is penguin, and it comes to that you only name things some way when you don't have the proper words in your language already or either you want to use some special meaning from a word that you already have but in the other language it sounds and feels different.

With polish, I personally tried to learn some and get the language's mechanics, but it feels so foreigner to me that after tried a bit I just gave up. Can't get it. And I don't have a true need of it. And so fat there's no concept in polish I'm aware of that interests me or even I need.


This is very true. When we encounter foreign language groups in the game, all the local objects are still in English. Except for trying to take part in conversation, we have little need to learn the new language. And language learning without a strong incentive is often boring and tedious.

Millhouse wrote:It happens to an extent but it seems only rare. I had a character that called ostriches strusie because that's how he was introduced to them. The word strusie actually did catch on a bit in the English zones. That's really the only example I can think of though.


It's good to know that this actually happened. It's very interesting to see this take place in a simulated universe.

Snickie wrote:I was able to do this when my Spanish character learned English, partially because I understood both languages enough to do that. But none of my characters (except for my Spanish character who was completely overwhelmed) ever spent enough time with the Polish to pick up any pidgin.


I haven't seen any non-English towns so far. I'm looking forward to encountering one and trying to live there as a foreign smith/craftsman with heavy accent, or a traveling merchant who speaks in mixed trade language.
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby sherman » Thu May 28, 2020 7:47 am

Zamordki is name polish use for english speakers but that's really only case I know. Usually if polish and english players meet and have no common language it won't go far, usually they just put some hello's and go on their own ways
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gudgeon
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby gudgeon » Thu May 28, 2020 9:02 am

I think I saw "Zamordki" somewhere. And I thought it referred to Spanish region because it looked like Zamora.
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby Millhouse » Fri May 29, 2020 12:27 am

gudgeon wrote:I think I saw "Zamordki" somewhere. And I thought it referred to Spanish region because it looked like Zamora.


It's a word invented by polish players. It actually means "foreign traveler" or "outsider" but most interpret it to mean English speaker. But anyone traveling from another zone to the polish zone could be considered zamordki.

There's a famous town in the polish zone that invented their own language. It might be the closest thing to pidgin you might find in game. But few people outside of the polish zone know about it.
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gudgeon
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby gudgeon » Fri May 29, 2020 2:02 am

Millhouse wrote:It's a word invented by polish players. It actually means "foreign traveler" or "outsider" but most interpret it to mean English speaker. But anyone traveling from another zone to the polish zone could be considered zamordki.

There's a famous town in the polish zone that invented their own language. It might be the closest thing to pidgin you might find in game. But few people outside of the polish zone know about it.


Now I know another Polish word. Someday I might even be able to play a Polish char.

An invented language is more like a regional dialect, unless they took in word and phrase from two or multiple languages. It is very interesting linguistic experiment nonetheless. There are also a group of chars speaking Scots on one of the English islands.
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Snowdrop
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby Snowdrop » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:36 pm

gudgeon wrote:However , if you visit the Polish continent for the first time, and see a "medium-sized animal with antlers and a trunk", and local people point at it and say "słoń-jeleń", probably you will begin to label it as "słoń-jeleń". And when you come back to the English continent, you will describe the "słoń-jeleń" to your people and probably share with them some "słoń-jeleń" jerky you acquired from the exotic land. And then other English chars will omit the dots and lines and just call that type of animal "slonjelen". A new word enters Cantrian English.


Unfortunately, there's just too many unwilling to play along like that. I had a character move from one island where they were used to donkeys across to another island where there were zebras. My character quite happily just kept referring to the zebras as 'stripey donkeys' because they didn't have a need for a new word for them. However, some newspawns popped up and started treating my character like an idiot for not calling them zebras - even though, at the time, the newspawns hadn't heard any mention of the word zebra! Some people just have to suck the fun out of everything.

On a donkey related note, another of mine momentarily thought the Italian word for donkeys was 'carini' until the amused Italian character clarified that they were actually calling the asini cute! :D It was a really nice moment and I think my character probably still in a way considers 'carini' to be a collective term for their donkeys!
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby Genie » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:25 pm

There are migrating chars or the ones been long time in the different areas and learned their languages, but they're mostly blending with EZ chars and not using those languages anymore unless they need to translate for a native.
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gudgeon
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Re: The lack of Anglopolski Pidgin and loanwords between the two languages

Postby gudgeon » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:07 am

Snowdrop wrote:On a donkey related note, another of mine momentarily thought the Italian word for donkeys was 'carini' until the amused Italian character clarified that they were actually calling the asini cute! :D It was a really nice moment and I think my character probably still in a way considers 'carini' to be a collective term for their donkeys!


This is cute. :)

Genie wrote:There are migrating chars or the ones been long time in the different areas and learned their languages


I've been learning Polish since my last post in this thread (the most common 1000 words memorized so far). If I successfully learn Polish eventually, this would be my most unexpected language learning experience.

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