Proposed Combat Changes 2019

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Joshuamonkey
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Re: Proposed Combat Changes 2019

Postby Joshuamonkey » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:32 am

I'm seeing some concern about the idea to not apply project-based combat to land travel (there's a vote for this currently). I'll attempt to go through the possible pros and cons:
Advantages
  • People will have even less motivation to run and then leave the town.
  • Not applying project-based combat to travel is easier to implement (projects currently require a location, and walkers aren't at a location).
  • It's a temporary solution that could be improved later.
  • It will make it reasonable to chase people (e.g. thieves), whereas with project-based combat it may be much too easy to escape since damage is slow.

Disadvantages
  • There will be two very different types of combat, which could cause confusion or difficulty in applying changes consistently.
  • People can still be killed very quickly during travel.
  • It could cause more combat to be during travel (where less people are around) instead of having combat in town. This could especially apply to sparring, unless we only allow skill experience to be gained via a combat project and not during instant combat (I think this is a good solution).

Alternatives
  • Have combat be the same during travel, so people will get in whatever damage they can until the target is no longer in sight.
  • Don't allow characters to leave during combat (changing the main combat proposal).
  • Have damage continue to be applied to the target even after they leave the location (e.g. for a day). Since projects don't travel, in this case I think the damage would have to continue even without the attacker working on the project. One could think of this as the slow effects of a wound. And since we're thinking of giving better defense against a target one is attacking, fleeing instead of attacking the target would be a disadvantage (except that they may avoid future attacks).

I think that allowing instant damage for travel is important to not allow people to escape too easily with project-based combat, and I also think it's important to not force people to stay in a location- we want them to stay and interact, so we just need to provide incentive to do so.
Having damage continue to be applied for a day I think is a reasonable solution, and makes sense to me in terms of realism, at least until a wound is cared for. We could even consider slow damage without projects as a completely alternative combat proposal instead of combat projects, but I think group-based combat wouldn't make as much sense without projects, nor guards.
So, if we want a solution for land travel that matches project-based combat, we could somehow allow the project to continue during travel even when the target has left?
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Re: Proposed Combat Changes 2019

Postby Joshuamonkey » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:24 pm

Hold People in Place https://trello.com/c/52aOgOTp
Current problem with combat: Not being able to hold anyone to one spot, unless they're in a locked room.
Consequences: Hard to move people without risk of escape. Too easy to steal without being caught. Too much focus on locks instead of direct combat (strength of multiple people).

Solution: Allow "dragging" someone to the current location, and they would have a chance of escaping depending on their strength and the strength of the people holding them.
Like dragging, the same tiredness factor would apply, and then to escape the person could try to drag themselves away (or it would be automatic when they try to leave, but it should tire them). This would add quite an interesting dynamic to combat I think.
Of course, it would be too easy for someone strong to overpower any single person, so:
1. The person holding someone should get more and more tired the longer they hold.
2. Each time the person held tries to escape, there's a chance they escape but they get more tired each time (which also decreases their chances). This should work out to make it possible but not likely that one person can hold someone, or a stronger person would hold them for only a day, and then if a few people hold it should be very unlikely to escape.
On tiredness, the held person could get as tired for trying to escape as the person holding gets in two(?) Cantr hours, so with 4 tries a day they'd still be equally tired.

This also opens up some possibilities for guard projects, where someone might automatically hold someone who attacks them or another person if they're standing guard.
And then people might even be able to guard items or buildings (not sure about this one).

Examples:
  • You want to move a prisoner to a different building or vehicle. They can run away in the process. While this should be /possible/ (but not likely if held by multiple people) it shouldn't be a matter of happening to be online at the time.
  • There are 3 people in a room who want to capture one other person in the room, but that one person has the key to the room. Why is there no way to prevent their escape? (especially if attacks are now slow)
As the second example implies, this change may be critical when implementing project-based combat.

Comments:
Greek wrote:You could wait for some time for guard to get tired and then try running away, which may be quite nice. As long as the guards don't change or don't have help.

Greek wrote:I think the issue with running away using a ship is a problem of sailing system, not combat itself. Increasing tick frequency may decrease the impact of undocking/changing course just before tick, but it won't be enough.
I have two ideas about that:
one is to have some kind of fast ship but with little cargo space that is fast on short distances (maybe close to coast? that might be hard but inretesting)
The second is to have fair number of objects that can be worked on to increase speed (like reins/train controls) so a bigger crew can be faster than a single runner. Currently it's exactly the opposite, because less cargo makes you faster and base speed of all rakers is the same
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Re: Proposed Combat Changes 2019

Postby Joshuamonkey » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:27 am

Please see the following Trello card for (an attempt at) a comprehensive overview of recommended changes to combat: https://trello.com/c/P1df26dU
There are these checklists at the Trello link:
* Implemented
* Prerequisites
* Details Decided
* Details Proposed
* Still Need to Determine
I think the main thing right now is verifying all of the ideas in "Details Proposed". These are not yet voted on by staff.
Please let me know if you have any thoughts. We may need to assign ownership over particular aspects, even to people outside of staff, to get enough feedback on these ideas and to determine the details.
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Re: Proposed Combat Changes 2019

Postby Rocket Frog » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:43 pm

Adding to what has been said...


Locks

I think they should be both pickable and breakable.
The lock picking method should use picklocks that may break or not (they should be fragile), and I think it should be related to a skill of pick locking and the lock's quality (or material?... We could get wooden locks, consisting of just a pole crossing the door from the inside, or a real iron lock).

The other way around, forcing the door, should depend on brute force and ramming the door, and the lock's quality (and material). Less chances of breaking a lock alone, but higher chances of doing it in group, and would depend on the character's strength.

If different lock materials are included, iron locks could need +2 persons to break them for example, while pole or post based locks could need 1 or 2 at least.
That if you want some "strategy" for locks. Otherwise, just forget it.

Healing

I think we should abandon at once the old healing mechanics based on food, and start adopting potions (as they already exist) and some wounds system, and an active healing with bandaging at least.

If we differentiate between piercing, blunting, and slashing weapons, we could also start thinking on weapons that cause bleeding and weapons that just hit and harm.

Combat

There again, the combat as a project I think most of us agree is the best option. And as @MattWithoos pointed out at Discord at the #english channel, giving different options for the attacked character to answer could be a good way of making it work for the victim.
Also making the combat progress even without the victim's input.

That's why I suggested that the attacker should make an initial attack, and then the victim should auto try to hit back, but with far less strength. And the exchange of weak blows should continue till 1 day passes, the attacker breaks the combat (but cannot make a full attack till the next day), or the victim answers with one of the above mentioned options *.

When the victim answers with either making a full blow, a defensive move, or tries to break and escape, the attacker makes an auto answer (generic try to block and slap back) and then gets the same set of options. If the attacker uses any of those options the victim makes an auto answer again, and gets the after mentioned options and the cycle repeats.

This would make a combat last as much as now with no extra disadvantages for the victim but new risks for the attacker, or give both combatants the chance to make the fight shorter and the exchange of blows faster.

~~~

I think we all agreed before about making hits weaker, aiming to a maximum total damage output per day similar or equal to the output we get nowadays having just 1 attack per day at the present.

Diluting all that damage over an entire day in several hits gives someone the chance to do something.

Use of potions

Limit the use of potions to some X amount per combat day and not allowing the combatants to be healed while in combat too would be IMO a good way to make people think it twice about entering combat.

Catching someone once they leave

... Add footprints ... And some tracking ability.
If you add footprints and you can read them and get information about where they headed to and if it's a man or woman footprint, or a vehicle footprint, you get more chances of catching someone.

Balance and weapons

Right now the best weapons are claymores/battle axes and crossbows.
Since those weapons require both hands to use them, just make them disable the chance of using a shield effectively while in combat.
I personally think using a ranged weapon in combat should disable you from using a shield, except maybe slings or some simple 1 handed ranged weapons.

If you go with the best weapon, you get more chances of hitting, but no chances of blocking. Only parrying or dodging.

As @Shammat said before and we discussed many times, getting blunt, piercing, and slashing damage and different kind of armors would make some weapons totally forgotten right now (club, billy club, war hammer, etc.) shine again, forcing attackers to be prepared with a whole set of weapons before even engaging in combat, and giving people more chances of surviving an attack.

For example: a plate mail could be more effective against slashing and less effective against blunt damage, and no more or less effective against piercing.
So someone with a heavy plate mail maybe won't as much chances of landing a hit as a less armored person, but would have far more chances of resisting a hit or getting little or insignificant damage. BUT... someone armed with a blunt weapon could have better chances of causing damage to the above said person.

*
The options were:

Defend (uses 100% of shield)
Parry & Return (uses 50% of shield, 50% attack)
Attack (no shield, 100% attack)
Flee (immediately exit to a building/vehicle/location, but 25% shield)
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alecto
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Re: Proposed Combat Changes 2019

Postby alecto » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:25 am

How does this work for wasters and fighting skill training? Will my characters have to make a choice between training and working on projects?

Would my characters be able to attack themselves?

Will weapons be rebalanced? (E.g. most ranged weapons are weighted for skill over strength, leaving weaker characters at a disadvantage in some situations).

Will 'buff' foods/liquids make a difference in other projects (e.g. strength buff and dragging/being dragged?)

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