OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department

User avatar
Money
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:05 pm

OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby Money » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:24 pm

After the locking of "The characters whose player you want to know" thread I started to think back to discussions of discouraging and stopping ooc cooperation. Given that I have too much time on my hands and felt like throwing my two cents into the wishing well that is the internet I thought I'd lay out my thoughts on the subject of OOC cooperation. Before diving into this head first I pulled some quotes from the Capital Rule article on the wiki, obviously depending on how the rule is interpreted and enforced these may or may not be relevant, that I interpreted as especially important to the topic of OOC cooperation in Cantr.

None of the actions of your characters should be on the basis of your Out Of Character (OOC) knowledge as a player about other locations, fellow characters, maps, resources, or the history of the game; nor on the basis of your communication OOC with fellow players.

You may never use multiple characters together to help each other. Character death is permanent, and reincarnation or other transfer of knowledge or possessions from one to another is not allowed

You may not plan or coordinate any in game events with other players OOC, even when to log in. It is not allowed to share maps, resource locations, or any other specific in game information with other players OOC.

The Four Day Rule: It is not allowed to discuss events Out Of Character with other players that might influence any ongoing action. Even concluded events such as character deaths may not be discussed OOC in the forums, irc, or private communications for a minimum of Four days. This is known as the Four Day Rule.


Given the breadth that the subject seems to encompass, ranging from an individual using their own knowledge to a group communicating OOC, I decided to just ram it all into the term OOC cooperation. It sounds nice and allows me to write without a bunch of caveats about exactly what I'm talking about. Obviously it's weird to say someone who uses their IC knowledge of locations from one of their characters to help another is OOC cooperating with themselves but such is life.

Now the goals of this ban seems to be:

(1) Separation of characters - every character needs to be a fully realized individual, they shouldn't be a hydra like telepathic hive mind nor should you just be playing with yourself
(2) Keep things "fair" - not all players can coordinate OOC to the same degree or even at all, the motivation being to level the playing field and allow everyone to be competitive.
(3) Keep things in game - Cantr is the game we play and therefore it is the proper arena in which the game should be played. OOC cooperation can remove a large component of the game from the game which doesn't seem desirable if you want player of the game to play the game.

I think these goals are reasonable ones to have and I do find them desirable but a number of factors get in the way of achieving them. As evidenced by the need to lock "The characters whose player you want to know" thread after running successfully for so many years and numerous cases of OOC cooperation exposed in the past OOC cooperation has been and continues to be indulged in by the player base. This to me suggests that without radically increasing the level of monitoring by staff, seemingly impossible with a volunteer group (note: not a criticism, staff keep it up!), OOC cooperation will continue to occur. I believe this is being further exacerbated by the fact that more and more ways of communicating online are becoming available, IC knowledge has become easier to obtain through widely spread notes and ties between players have strengthened over the years as the player base solidified. So on top of OOC cooperation being impossible to stop we also have it becoming easier to achieve without notice thus directly impeding the achievement of all the goals listed above. Given such a situation the only reasonable response in my mind seems to be discussing the ways in which these goals can be considered achieved with minimal effort.

I'll be posting my thoughts on how exactly we might go about doing this later on because I've been typing for too long but I thought the discussion could start right now. Cheers!

Tl;dr Stopping OOC cooperation is already hard and its becoming easier to accomplish as time goes on. Given this it seems reasonable to talk about what we want to accomplish by stopping/discouraging OOC cooperation and how we might accomplish those things with minimal effort.
User avatar
SekoETC
Posts: 15523
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby SekoETC » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:39 pm

I think rather than telling people not to transfer information outside the game, it would be better to just require people to ignore that information ingame. Because let's face it, after several years in the game, you're going to know which islands and towns are worth visiting and which are a waste of time. You might miss out on small societies that are just starting out in some remote corner of the world, until you spawn a character in one, but playing should be fun, and for some people it's forming relationship with the same players (or characters) repeatedly through multiple of your characters. Many times it has happened that my characters have had relationships with two or three of the characters of a single player at a time. Of course it hurts harder if that person quits and suddenly you have to deal with breakup on two or three characters, but that doesn't make the past relationships less meaningful. It's often good to see places from different perspectives, and see how differently certain characters treat your characters when they are strangers as opposed to friends. I've had people welcomed into towns with open arms while being denied entry for my other character, just because one looked more reliable than the other. If each character was only allowed to visit towns that you have no prior knowledge of, the world would get small very quickly.
Not-so-sad panda
User avatar
Wolfsong
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby Wolfsong » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:09 pm

Allowing people to play more than one character at a time is the crux of the problem, if there is one. Players run into their own characters multiple times, and the characters of other people, multiple times. Only way to fix it is to dramatically decrease the amount of characters people are allowed to play.

Gently asking people to forget in favour of the rules won't work. Not when a lot of rule breaking is subconscious ie knowing who runs a city despite having never been there with one character, because another spawned there.
Image
User avatar
sanchez
Administrator Emeritus
Posts: 8742
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:37 pm

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby sanchez » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:27 pm

The challenge of the game is in the unpredictable dynamics with chars that you don't control. It's easiest to achieve when players remain anonymous, but there will always be things that we have to make an effort to hold back for each char, whether it's knowledge from another of our chars, or communication with friends OOC. We don't work to limit this because there is some rule, we do it because it's what the game is about.
User avatar
MattWithoos
Posts: 513
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:51 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby MattWithoos » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:58 pm

The only way it's truly possible (without PD intervention, that is) is for players to search within themselves for the reasons they play Cantr.

If you want to be part of a narrative, part of a story, part of a society simulator... you just have to hold off on the urge to speak to the players of characters you interact with, plot with, plot against...

God damn it is hard. I can count - right now - at least 5 characters I would LOVE to know the players of. I would just love to chat with them, ask them "what's the history of your character? what are their plans for the future? do they like my character?". But this would spoil the story for me, and influence me OOCly.

It's hard. I don't have a strategy for handling this. Because it's only in my recent return that I actively and consciously decided to no longer reach out to other players. I'm enjoying it, and I am excited for reaching out to them when our characters no longer interact.

For those who do want to connect with players - focus on waiting until your characters no longer interact, at the minimum. This makes the roleplay and the story really enjoyable, and you know that if - or when - it ends, you can still reach out and chat about the concluded story.

--------------------------

As for stopping OOC cooperation, players probably need to be more trigger-happy with reporting even slightly suspicious things to PD. Everything you report may not actually be OOC coordination, but some of it might add to a puzzle piece the PD have.
User avatar
HFrance
Posts: 3935
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: No mato, à beira do rio.

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby HFrance » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:56 am

MattWithoos wrote:
[b]As for stopping OOC cooperation,
players probably need to be more trigger-happy with reporting even slightly suspicious things to PD. Everything you report may not actually be OOC coordination, but some of it might add to a puzzle piece the PD have.[/b]


Just coloring and setting in bold.
Cantr II is a social simulator. What is not working is due a problem in the society.
Cantr is like Vegas - what happens in the game should be in the game.
"It's a virtual world, not a theme park!" (Richard Bartle)
User avatar
Alladinsane
Posts: 3351
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:09 pm
Location: Fla

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby Alladinsane » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:01 am

The "dead character" thread might be a way to reminisce with some and have a 'virtual beer'.

I do see one problem with it if those who interacted with that particular char still have an active member in that chars lives.
We do post anonymous threads for people now, I suppose we can make anonymous contacts for people also.

e.g. "Hey, somebody wanted to send you a message and say that they really want to praise your chars rp in the past"

Anon posts can be made as easily as anon contacts.
What we really hope to see is some self-policing within this fine community.
Solve things ig if you can (while keeping ooc messages to a minimum please?), but if you need to consult higher powers... PD is a resort.
A famous wise man once said absolutely nothing!
User avatar
Money
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:05 pm

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby Money » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:02 am

Just wanted to explain why I never got around to making this post. Essentially I got a few hundred words in and realized I was wasting time I could've spent on the game or RL. The forum always bums me out and spending real effort on it just amplified the feeling. Might get around to posting a heavily truncated version but I'm doubtful.
User avatar
muidoido
Posts: 1758
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 10:00 pm
Location: Brasil

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby muidoido » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:04 pm

HFrance wrote:
MattWithoos wrote:As for stopping OOC cooperation, players probably need to be more trigger-happy with reporting even slightly suspicious things to PD. Everything you report may not actually be OOC coordination, but some of it might add to a puzzle piece the PD have.


Just coloring and setting in bold.


And red
Jaxon
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:08 pm

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby Jaxon » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:11 am

@Money: Excellent analysis into the OOC rule. I particularly liked the point you made to pull up the definition of the rule. You definitely got me thinking.

@Other posters: I also like the follow up comments related to the intent of the rule and how it realistically isn't followed.

This brings me to my point, if we know the rules aren't realistically followed, why isn't there a discussion of changing the rules? In particular, maybe we need to look at how we can incorporate more OOC into the game. Maybe instead of instantly frown upon it, though knowing it occurs every where, the staff does something to mitigate the harm it causes. This could instantly bring back people, though I fear we are so late in the development of this game that any chance of innovation has long ago expired.
User avatar
muidoido
Posts: 1758
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 10:00 pm
Location: Brasil

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby muidoido » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:08 am

I disagree. The capital rule is important to the game. And SOME people's failure to play by the rules isn't motivation to change it. This is the very reason why our REAL world society is going down the drain in so many countries.

But talking about it is very good for the cantrian community
Very good thread!
User avatar
sherman
Public Relations Chair/Translator-Finnish (PR)
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 am
Location: Finland, Helsinki

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby sherman » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:53 pm

I would agree with Jaxon however. This game was made in early 2000s when there wasn't Skype, facebook, whatsapp etc. so you can't realistically expect people to not communicate outside of the game. Specially younger folks are used to communicate in social media etc. Seriously, this game isn't up to date how technology has progressed so we should really think points Money said. Capital Rule is nice on paper but with current resources we got available we should really consider rules again

Just to give an example.. If someone wants to cheat with multiple accounts, it's relative easy now days with a bit of googling and so. And people do that in almost every single game, some get caught and some don't. And Cantr isn't big game and we don't have so much resources so we need to limit damage done by OOC but also we can't be too restrictive either
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
-Erwin Rommel-
User avatar
Wolfsong
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby Wolfsong » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:47 pm

Something to note: Skype may not have existed, but IRC, ICQ, MSN messenger, AIM, AOL chat rooms, etc., all did exist when Cantr was created.
Image
User avatar
sherman
Public Relations Chair/Translator-Finnish (PR)
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 am
Location: Finland, Helsinki

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby sherman » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:31 pm

Better would be probably say that back then didn't exist smart phones where you can carry communicate methods all the time with you
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
-Erwin Rommel-
User avatar
Rebma
Posts: 2898
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:47 am
Location: London, ON
Contact:

Re: OOC Cooperation: How should it be stopped/discouraged?

Postby Rebma » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:40 am

I had a phone in 2002 that was capable of playing cantr on. Just saying.(and other chat methods too were usable)
kronos wrote:like a nice trim is totally fine. short, neat. I don't want to be fighting through the forests of fangorn and expecting treebeard to come and show me the way in

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest