are animals too weak?

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department

User avatar
Jos Elkink
Founder Emeritus
Posts: 5711
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

are animals too weak?

Postby Jos Elkink » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:13 pm

When we introduced animals, we underestimated the impact of the high reproduction rates. We had a town - the name slipped my mind - where raccoons were reproducing like madness and even though they did very little damage when attacking, the sheer number of them meant that the entire town - which was a nice, active town - was killed.

That was not the idea behind introducing animals.

This was adjusted and soon enough, most towns were doing fine with animals. They became a mild nuisance only - you just make a shield, distribute it, and you're fine. And they're a nice sources of bones and meat. Nowadays we even have domestication with farming and traveling applications and I must say, that is probably the coolest improvement to the game in the past ten years.

In most regions of the game, that was the whole story, but some islands were heavily populated with animals and sparsely with humans, so surviving there required significant protection. It was nice to have the game world somewhat separated between populated regions and wilderness, so that gave an interesting dimension to the game.

Now I see some players complain about the size of the game world. In particular what I think is known as Fu is very large indeed. I must admit, one of my favourite activities was designing new lands, and I couldn't stop myself ;-) ... But I also like the sheer size of Fu and the fact that it exists for future exploration and exploitation. But now people complain it leads to too wide distribution of characters and too small towns that cannot develop into the kind of complex societies Cantr was designed to have. It was never meant to be a game about tons of tiny villages.

So, I wonder, are animals too calm these days? In other words, one way of having at the same time a big (much to explore) and a small (high population density) world in the game, is to make the wilderness wilder. Simply manufacturing a nice shield should not suffice to travel through the wilderness. And villages should not be able to protect themselves that simply. But also, it should not be a huge task to protect a village, so we can get on with other things.

So I wonder whether you need stronger animals - at least some breeds - that will dominate in large, lightly populated areas, but that can be protected against for example by building city walls or other enclosures.

It would be nice if developing a large island would require cooperative efforts; if towns could be safe havens for travelers; if particular safe routes allow towns to require tolls; and if exploration of Fu was basically postponed until other areas are more densily populated.

Now, I'm very aware that one major problem would be that some tiny language zones are in such wilderness regions, which is a problem that would need to be addressed, but putting that aside for the minute, does this make any sense? :) Probably already debated to death and also discussed repeatedly in GAC / GAB over the years, but just because I saw suggestions of removing Fu that just pain me ;-) ...
User avatar
sherman
Public Relations Chair/Translator-Finnish (PR)
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 am
Location: Finland, Helsinki

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby sherman » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:20 pm

No, they are not too weak. They can still hurt damn a lot (Says a guy who got killed by a scarabs here)

Problem is more about fact that over years people have killed dangerous animals off, thus damage is lower. Still on Fu they are real danger and same applies to other island where there is larger number of dangerous animals. And fact is that weaker ones have died so spawning skills favor stronger characters. I think animals are fine, any stronger and places like.. Finnish region would be killed off and that wouldn't be any fun.

Not about topic but problem with tiny villages is players and quietness of some existing towns. Lots of people tend to want to be leaders on this game..

But these are my personal opinions and experiences with the game.
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
-Erwin Rommel-
User avatar
Tiamo
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:22 pm

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Tiamo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:43 pm

Only the fiercest of animals (like rhino's) can be a real threat to shielded humans nowadays. Without a shield animals will be a constant threat. I think the animal system is nicely balanced.

Making animals more dangerous as a means of discouraging exploration and/or wide spreading out of population will not work. It is too late for that: even all of Fu has probably been mapped already and it is in fact the island with the highest population of all (not the most densely populated of course). Furthermore, it won't work; there are ways for everyone to avoid the dangers of any animal, if you know how. I know: i once had a weak, awkward hunter without access to iron survive just about the most dangerous wildlife on Cantr.

I.m.h.o. the best way to make (most) people cling together in (groups of) towns is to make living alone much harder than it is now, by limiting the number of (useful) production skills a single character has, thus creating a real need for cooperation and/or trade.
I think ...
User avatar
SekoETC
Posts: 15523
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby SekoETC » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:48 pm

Both of my older Finnish characters are strong and good hunters. You pretty much have to be in order to survive. If a weakling wanders off, they still get killed by animals or starves to death because they are too wounded to farm. Also on Treefeather, the direwolves and bears can be deadly. It's possible to die in a day or two if you're weak and unlucky. I think the main problem is that animals always attack at the same strength, so if a person has good genes, they are immune with an iron shield, the best ones even with a chitin shield. If animals had variation, or there were legendary animals that had much more strength and could do the same damage as a human with a crossbow, and sometimes bypass shields, people might consider twice before going into the wilderness. Also legendary animals should have a healing ability, and they should be able to escape while wounded. It should take a team effort to kill one of them. Also it would be cool if legendary animals were smarter than regular animals and would target the person who attacked them last instead of a random person.
Not-so-sad panda
User avatar
Crownless
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:34 am

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Crownless » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:09 pm

And then there's the Kraken... :wink:
Coloro che vincono, in qualunque modo vincono, mai non ne riportano vergogna.
User avatar
Jos Elkink
Founder Emeritus
Posts: 5711
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Jos Elkink » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:10 pm

Tiamo wrote:the best way to make (most) people cling together in (groups of) towns is to make living alone much harder than it is now, by limiting the number of (useful) production skills a single character has, thus creating a real need for cooperation and/or trade.


I'm not sure I like that solution much, because it really forces your character in particular roles, whether you enjoy playing those or not. When I start a character, I usually decide in advance whether it's a more politically minded, or more hunter, etc. but that way I would be forced into a particular role ...

Seko, are attacks also with random variation? I.e. is it important that the same individual animal behaves consistently in a certain way?

(Of course, at the moment, the system only saves information about an animal pack, not an individual animal.)
User avatar
Tiamo
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:22 pm

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Tiamo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:10 pm

And then there's the Kraken... :wink:

That one is definitely legendary. :mrgreen:
I think ...
User avatar
Jos Elkink
Founder Emeritus
Posts: 5711
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Jos Elkink » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:13 pm

Tiamo wrote:all of Fu has probably been mapped already and it is in fact the island with the highest population of all (not the most densely populated of course)


I didn't know that actually, I thought it was mostly the coast that was mapped. Interesting! :)
User avatar
SekoETC
Posts: 15523
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby SekoETC » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:27 pm

As you attack an animal, it becomes gradually weaker and might eventually lose it's ability to get damage past the shield. If you manage to reach this point then you can stop attacking it and be safe. But if you accidentally kill it, you have to start over with the next animal in line. As far as I know, there is no element of randomness in damage dealt, it's a flat number based on animal health and type. It would make more sense if there was an element of randomness involved.
Not-so-sad panda
User avatar
computaertist
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:33 am

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby computaertist » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:48 pm

SekoETC wrote:As you attack an animal, it becomes gradually weaker and might eventually lose it's ability to get damage past the shield. If you manage to reach this point then you can stop attacking it and be safe. But if you accidentally kill it, you have to start over with the next animal in line. As far as I know, there is no element of randomness in damage dealt, it's a flat number based on animal health and type. It would make more sense if there was an element of randomness involved.

I think there is an element of randomness (my characters weak enough to be hurt sometimes notice slight variations in scar size) but it's too small to matter for any practical purpose.
Mark Twain wrote:Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.
Millhouse
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:32 am

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Millhouse » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:24 pm

I agree that making animals stronger wouldn't likely have the effect of clustering people together. And I'm not fond of the idea that the game would only be playable if forced into large communities. I suspect what would happen is that each language zone would have very limited numbers of large towns and every player in that zone would have a character in those locations, thus every location would be a stale copy of every other location. There should be diversity. I think one of the best ways to tackle the current issues with small village issues would be to retool the spawning system so small but active communities aren't penalized and "feeding the sleepers" wasn't so rewarded.
User avatar
sherman
Public Relations Chair/Translator-Finnish (PR)
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 am
Location: Finland, Helsinki

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby sherman » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:59 pm

That would only help a bit with problem but there's towns that are active but newspawn spawn when most sleep and walk off and then some end up making a new tows. Or newspawns who spawn and then never wake up. I think this is a problem with fewer players left and sadly I don't know any answer.. Guess some new player have less patience than you would need for this game
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
-Erwin Rommel-
User avatar
Alutka
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:28 pm
Location: Poland, Łódź

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Alutka » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:27 pm

Jos Elkink wrote:
Tiamo wrote:all of Fu has probably been mapped already and it is in fact the island with the highest population of all (not the most densely populated of course)


I didn't know that actually, I thought it was mostly the coast that was mapped. Interesting! :)


Isn't it the kind of knowledge you should discover IC. Jos? :P


Back to the topic. I don't think that making animals stronger will help. It will just make people to spend most of their time indoors instead of outdoors. Especially when we have machines like potatoes harvesters.
“Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. He is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”
User avatar
Jos Elkink
Founder Emeritus
Posts: 5711
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby Jos Elkink » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:30 pm

Alutka wrote:Isn't it the kind of knowledge you should discover IC. Jos? :P


Yeah, I guess ;) ...

sherman wrote:I think this is a problem with fewer players left and sadly I don't know any answer.


It is true that a lot would be solved by simply having more active players, and I think it is the most important thing to address at the moment (getting more players), but the game world is so huge, that this is not really the solution, unless we go for a tens of thousands of players at least ;-) ...
User avatar
sherman
Public Relations Chair/Translator-Finnish (PR)
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 am
Location: Finland, Helsinki

Re: are animals too weak?

Postby sherman » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:39 pm

More players would definitely help to balance things out. Less walking newspawns would mean less new mini villages and less frustrated players when their town doesn't get people.

And yes animals are balanced now. They might just feel weak because most places have tons of healing foods so animal attacks are like meh, some honey and I'm okay
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
-Erwin Rommel-

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest