Cantr II Discussion Forum

For the record, the new things with butter are going to be more expensive and therefor bought less often (than say bread and cooked meat instead of buttery meat pie) regardless of whether we keep old things or not (unless you can eat like 10 grams of buttery meat pie a day and cook kilos a day, and even then the cost of milk will probably make it a stretch until a huge dairy industry exists). The only question is whether people will be happy or upset over it (new things = "Yay new thigns, thank you!" ; loss of old things equals = "Boo, you're ruining everything!").

Oh, and I also assumed croissants were raw dough, but raw Cantrian dough without butter, eggs, milk, water, or oil, which means they'd be plenty dry enough already anyway and just had to be shaped in a way that makes them handle-able for eating. Baking them would cook off the natural healing properties hidden in wheat, but also give it strength for nourishment.

This makes me pretty grumpy. No one knows how much work has been put into balancing the ratios at the addition of butter, and now a bunch of people want to keep the old recipes and have RD design a bunch of new recipes which might end up not even being cooked by anybody, because cheaper and easier alternatives exist. I don't know if Greek is going to decide to roll with the old plan despite the complaints, but it seems that nobody appreciated what RD does.

Of course we do appreciate what you do, but this is yet another change that a) doesn't really achieve much in the eyes of quite a few players, b) didn't have any input from the players at all, meaning that their opinion didn't count, causing grievances, and c) makes life more complicated for a lot of characters. I am not surprised that the changes weren't greeted with open arms and enthusiasm shown for various additions made so far.

As for being grumpy, I am sure that the feeling is mutual.

I think the changes would be accepted easier and appreciated more if the grand idea behind them all would be communicated beforehand.

The changes seem to be working towards a more realistic and balanced set of recipes, weeding out some mistakes from the past, which is a really good idea. However, this is what i make of it, it is not what is being communicated.

The problem is animal products, which are neither as reliable nor as accessible as resources from the ground. The old recipes have established trade values. Not all chars who rely on them will be able to make the new recipes. The domestication infrastructure is quite expensive, and requires a greater active population to maintain than is present in many towns these days.

New recipes with butter are welcome. It is true that the nutritional values of the new foods should be balanced against existing ones that use similarly available ingredients, but this is not the same thing as removing the old recipes when it gets complicated.

Promoting animal domestication with new milk and egg recipes is a good goal, but it won’t be for all chars. There should still exist in game recipes that use only resources from the ground and which provide good nutritional value in prepared recipes. There are potential regional impacts when certain ingredient and fuel combinations are no longer available.

Chroma Key wrote:Of course we do appreciate what you do, but this is yet another change that a) doesn't really achieve much in the eyes of quite a few players,

Yeah, a few players.

Chroma Key wrote:b) didn't have any input from the players at all, meaning that their opinion didn't count, causing grievances,

It did. Hey, you was one wanting butter too! http://forum.cantr.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25867&hilit=butter#p528459. Should butter be implemented but be useless? And when we do fix, then it's better to fix all then fix some things and left other broken. Pizza was affected by butter change, why not to fix it completely in same time if RD have to spend time anyway to rebalance it?
Also keep in mind, that in departments are also players that often lost years in this game and people communicate not only by irc. Departments aren't mythical organizations run by computers or any other artificial beings. They are run by players who love this game and really know it well. And they do spend a lot of time on suggestions forum, but keep in mind, they do have limited amount of time (most of them have life beside game, have to go to work etc.) and still would like to achieve something, not to stop on discussions. Plain discussion doesn't fix the game.

Chroma Key wrote:c) makes life more complicated for a lot of characters. I am not surprised that the changes weren't greeted with open arms and enthusiasm shown for various additions made so far.

Nope. More complicated for cooks. Which is good, as made their work more valuable. And give next reasons for towns to trade. Maybe it will move game a bit from chat into society simulator?
Really, you want create cook that is master chef, or just some guy that will be able to do plain food? For second option - we don't prevent that, there will be still plenty of plain food available.

Chroma Key wrote:As for being grumpy, I am sure that the feeling is mutual.

Yeah, being grumpy is for sure mutual. How world would be better place without it.... About this change... I found maybe 4 or 5 players being angry at the change.

C'mon guys! Your characters won't die because of this change. If you're playing cooks they will be able to make more sophisticated recipes. If you're playing traders you will have easier to find trade, towns WILL HAVE REASON to trade. If you're playing a... Breeder? Your character could become very valuable in your region.

Seriously, changes are bad? Look how game looks now. Look how game was looking few years ago (or you forget?). For sure you was younger then, more addicted etc, but game was better? I believe not. Changes made this game much more depth, gave many new ways to play. And game could be even better, but often important and great changes are stopped because "players don't want them". And they don't want them because game will be a bit more interesting (harder for them). I'm so glad, that petrol requirement for cars was implemented years ago, now it would be impossible - and thing that characters are now much more rich wouldn't help. Or maybe it is why it would be harder now?

I'd like to add that each con may very well be flipped and turned into a pro. Characters forced to suffer stale bread and cheap pancakes are surely more entertaining to play than those who can eat the same thing every other of your characters eats. Your character might envy those rich lords and ladies with their butter then.

On that note, it might be time to open up a discussion on popular butter recipes.

sanchez wrote:The problem is animal products, which are neither as reliable nor as accessible as resources from the ground. The old recipes have established trade values. Not all chars who rely on them will be able to make the new recipes. The domestication infrastructure is quite expensive, and requires a greater active population to maintain than is present in many towns these days.

Changing trade values could be good. One of problems is that trade values are too simple, it's nowhere like it's in real world. Here (in Poland) we can grow lemons too. But I assure you it will be harder and more expensive then in Spain or Mexico.
And fact that it requires bigger population is great. Not everything have to be available for three people village and I assure you, there are towns able to maintain animals. On the other side, finally will be something for what they will be needed beside more active chat.

sanchez wrote:Promoting animal domestication with new milk and egg recipes is a good goal, but it won’t be for all chars. There should still exist in game recipes that use only resources from the ground and which provide good nutritional value in prepared recipes. There are potential regional impacts when certain ingredient and fuel combinations are no longer available.

It doesn't have to be for all chars. My wild chars for sure won't benefit from introduction of rail.
There will still exists recipes that use resources from the ground and provide good nutritional value.

-Quite- a few players, yes. Not everyone is voicing their dissent here.

So, by Pies' logic, I automatically consented to everything else related to butter by asking for it. Ridiculous. If you thought this was your touchè moment, Pies, think again. Hard. I don't recall having said a single thing about these existing recipes being changed... Oh, I know why, because none of the players (including me) were in on it, so, just like in your quote of me, the players didn't have any input on that!

Of course butter should be useful, and not pointless, but it would be nice to know what other changes it would bring. I doubt anyone realised or expected that old recipes would be changed with the introduction of butter, which is what's in issue here, not the simple introduction of butter. I am actually very happy because I'm lucky enough that these changes hardly affect me as my chars already have or are able to tame animals which would provide a regular source of milk.

I salute your attempt to defend the departments, and the work done, but my post is also an attempt to explain the source of dissent. I don't have any of the preconceivements that you seem to think I have. Many things are discussed, and when they aren't, this is what we get.

More complicated for cooks? Well, I know many, and they are also characters, so...

By the way, I'm not the one who said she was grumpy, so you may want to direct this part of your post to the person originally stating her grumpiness (which she's perfectly entitled to, by the way, as are others). As for me, what I'm feeling is sympathy and empathy; I'm not grumpy about this at all.

As for how many people you found angry over the changes, I doubt it represents the total. I very much doubt it.

Also, this isn't about "change being bad". I don't think anyone is flat out refusing any and every single change. People have different preferences, and habits, and an idea being "great" is highly relative. There's no need to label everyone as being against change and those so called "great ideas" just because they have a different opinion.

It is not the just few changes we had , I know there are always other recipes to use. It is we suddenly need to embrace things in another way and now we don't know what will happen next. Tomorrow we may need water for cooking meat and if I complain someones will say I am not appreciating staff or being grumpy. I don't underestimate the hard work they do and new recipes are always fun. Just I can't see the point of every change and Cantr is already not easy to grasp for many. I guess at least there can be polls before such changes and we can be prepared.

I doubt water will ever be used for cooking, unless the gathering rates were multiplied by at least ten, which I doubt is ever going to happen.

Chroma Key wrote:As for how many people you found angry over the changes, I doubt it represents the total. I very much doubt it.

Of course it doesn't represents total. I don't say that every from 664 other player is happy for the change. Probably most of them even doesn't bother. Just I don't agree with idea that anything like majority of players is against. Rather it is small but loud group. Small even for forum.

Genie wrote:It is we suddenly need to embrace things in another way and now we don't know what will happen next.

Oh, just like good old Romes. Over 2 thousands years, and nothing changed

Genie wrote:Tomorrow we may need water for cooking meat

It can look like good idea, but in long term... Cooked meat is one of most basic foods, water is almost free and everywhere you can get it. It won't help.

Genie wrote:Just I can't see the point of every change and Cantr is already not easy to grasp for many.

You don't have to use every change. Many didn't matter for me, while others were completely changing game.
About not easy to grasp - this is what great games are about - you can start playing fast, but need to spend really much time until you will know all secrets - check games like Adom, Morrowind etc.

SekoETC wrote:I doubt water will ever be used for cooking, unless the gathering rates were multiplied by at least ten, which I doubt is ever going to happen.

Never suggested that it has to be a realistic amount of water of course

Chroma Key wrote:Of course we do appreciate what you do, but this is yet another change that a) doesn't really achieve much in the eyes of quite a few players, b) didn't have any input from the players at all, meaning that their opinion didn't count, causing grievances, and c) makes life more complicated for a lot of characters. I am not surprised that the changes weren't greeted with open arms and enthusiasm shown for various additions made so far.

I am quoting Chroma because she expresses my feelings better than I could, thus by quoting her I'll hopefully avoid being redundant.


I am not angryabout the change, nor I think my characters will starve, but I for sure don't like it. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the effort that staff makes, it only means that I not always agree with some things. I have the feeling that's the sensation of most of the players who don't agree, I don't think that angry or grumpy are the most widespread feelings, but certainly can't speak for the rest.

As I've said in another thread, I belive that change is needed to evolve, and some changes that I might like or dislike affect areas such as programming where I'm absolutely lost, thus I can't really agree or disagree on those, I trust Greek completely on that area. The introduction of new resources/recipes/roleplay items is not one of those areas, so I feel entitled to express my opinion. I rarely do when I don't like something, but in this ocasion I feel like doing it as what discomforts me the most from the whole thing (again: see Chroma's post) seems to be becoming a trend of late.

Pies wrote:Of course it doesn't represents total. I don't say that every from 664 other player is happy for the change. Probably most of them even doesn't bother. Just I don't agree with idea that anything like majority of players is against. Rather it is small but loud group. Small even for forum.

We can speculate all we want about what most people like or dislike and we both can be wrong. Since the players never had the chance to share their opinion beforehand, I find pretty moot beating that bush, on both sides.

SekoETC wrote:I doubt water will ever be used for cooking, unless the gathering rates were multiplied by at least ten, which I doubt is ever going to happen.

What I've said is is just an example to point on the future changes we may need to embrace without any comments. I can wear my " grumpy" tag and walk with it, but what I do or think won't change the facts that we are experiencing now . None has to be against new recipes or called narrow minded because they don't like some changes (or the way they get served) and people have a right to say what they think. I hope as players we have a right to disagree at times .