Cantr II Discussion Forum

Assuming that there's something wrong with Cantr in the first place. I think there are several things.

First of all, I think a lot of locations should be deleted because many are just copies of each other. Particularly Fu is too big. Even the coastline of it is too big, not to mention the insides.

All locations with no natural resources should either be nuked or planted with new resources, except maybe if they're necessary for traveling across a certain region, and even then it could be cut down to a few locations like it's done with the deserts on the old English islands. There are also too many vast forests that only have wood and nothing more. It would be better to replace all tundras with lakes unless there can be whole new resources for them, because otherwise once you've seen one, you've seen them all.

Also, too many resources are native to too many islands. I think each island should have at least one unique resource that only grows there and nowhere else, maybe excluding the smallest ones. The animals were made unique to each island, so why not the resources?

After excess locations were deleted, there would be too much space between the remaining locations, so the rest of the world should be condensed. This could be done by increasing travel speeds or adding more travel ticks.

Complex machinery like drills and cars should require spare parts and maintenance every once in a while or they would become unusable. So if some drill is sitting in an abandoned town, it should get rusty and require upkeep.

If cars were made to require maintenance then ships should also require the same. There should be dry docks where you can perform maintenance on a ship and it would require oil and sometimes wood. Ships that haven't gone through maintenance say within 5 years would gather barnacles in the bottom, which would slow them down. They could also develop a leak, which would require the person/people on board to actively bail out water or the ship would sink. People could invest in a bilge pump as a precaution so that they could empty the ship of water more efficiently. Currently ships require no maintenance at all and that makes them too good compared to cars that at least use petrol. Also if someone encountered a storm while at sea, they should lower their speed to 50% within half a day (or some other negotiable timespan) or risk damage to the sails.

Harvesting honey should be a manual project, not automatic. I've heard of people who set up long honey projects in abandoned towns, then come collect the spoils later on. Optimally all automated projects should require manual stages. Automation is only good in creating a delay but when there's no work involved, it's just free resources. The whole flower growing and honey industry is out of balance. If it was balanced, there could be more water allowed per day of work because it wouldn't be as important anymore, and it could be used for more mundane things such as cooking and cleaning.

I would also include the possibility of voluntarily playing child characters who have parents. No one would be forced into playing a child or a parent, but those who wanted to do it could do it.

Then one thing we could have that I really like from FTO is mines. In mountain/hills locations, people could dig tunnels and randomly discover veins of ores and gems. The veins would have a limited yield, after which they would be depleted. Some locations would have higher chances of finding specific veins, but these chances would be hidden so people would have to discover things through trial and error. The mines should also require logs as support beams. That would make digging cost something instead of being free.

Then there's the combat system. I don't have a solution for that problem but the main problem is that drag and lock up, or hide in a building and run out quickly to hit people, then run back inside are too beneficial currently. The system should be changed in a direction so that you couldn't drag a person unless they trusted you or were subdued, and a group of people locked up in a room should be able to jump on a jailer and take his keys. For years a person has been doomed if they don't have a crowbar. Also it shouldn't be possible to be invincible just because you can click faster than other people. If people know that there's an attacker hiding in a building, they should be able to attack automatically when the person comes out, or at least prevent the person from returning inside until people can decide for themselves if they still want to attack. (This to avoid the problem where someone says through a window that they're not going to fight anymore, yet auto-attack wouldn't recognize that.) I think it should be possible to knock people out without putting them into NDS.

It's election season in the United States and as a society simulator I believe we can follow the real world lead a bit. Some of the issues of the real world would apply to Cantr as well. All with the main purpose of giving players a variety of options to participate in and keep their interest in the game.

Stimulate the economy. Mainly restating some of the things Seko suggested here. Often, especially in more developed areas of the game, the economy seems stagnant. Cities have stockpiles of nearly every major resource. They have no need to produce much, so there are no jobs for Cantrians. We need more reasons to use these resources. Either through expanded technology/recipes/clothing/etc that can be made or expanded decay. So long as it isn't overwhelming. Some of this in process already.

War. No one likes war, but conflict is good to a point. Players can sit and sleep or choose to follow a calling to go off to a distant land and fight for a good cause. This is something that should be more in game than out of game discussion. English versus Polish war would be very interesting.

Gambling and sporting events I throw this out as an option I think is sorely needed. Something to keep players interested for those 3 hours between ticks. Anything that would fit into the category of a game within a game. I've been playing with the idea of slot machines lately but have yet to make any official suggestion as it has failed in the past and I would like to make a presentation that would get approved. Similar to this would be sporting events like horse racing since domestication of horses is coming.

Religion. I'm really surprised at the lack of religion in game. I guess most Cantrians are very skeptical. Again this is another issue that should be left to in game resolution but I would really like to see it done in a successful manner.

I guess in short the overall goal is not as much recruitment of players but finding ways to keep the players we have and those that do join interested and active.

bnlphan wrote:Religion. I'm really surprised at the lack of religion in game. I guess most Cantrians are very skeptical. Again this is another issue that should be left to in game resolution but I would really like to see it done in a successful manner.

I guess it's not just skeptical people, it's more so the fact that actually setting up a religion will take a lot of work, for both char and also player. Thinking up an entire religion is quite hard, I imagine.

Besides that, I think a lot of what's mentioned till now is quite a good point. I think rot of all things and resources would "unstagnate" the economy of large towns on rich islands. Be careful though to balance it enough so it is still actually possible to survive in a less wealthy area.

I really like Seko's point about honey and water, too.

I think a lot of people agree on the combat system, too, just not how it needs to be fixed. I don't have any good ideas on that right now, either.

I like every one of Seko's suggestions, with the sole exception of playing children. Like it or not, the game... like people... can be highly sexualized at times. It already creeps me out quite a bit that minors play and can, if they choose, masquerade as adults. It used to creep me out when my sister used to play and I didn't know who her characters were. I think having children characters in the game would be a dealbreaker for me unless sex was banned from Cantr completely.

Everything else on the list, I agree with and would applaud.

But I'd like to focus on a couple of things that bnlphan suggested and add my own thoughts.

bnlphan wrote:Stimulate the economy.... especially in more developed areas of the game, the economy seems stagnant. Cities have stockpiles of nearly every major resource. They have no need to produce much, so there are no jobs for Cantrians. We need more reasons to use these resources. Either through expanded technology/recipes/clothing/etc that can be made or expanded decay. So long as it isn't overwhelming. Some of this in process already.

This is, I think, a key. If Cantr is a society simulator, it's currently simulating a decaying, dying, complacent society with no future to speak of. There is no way in the game currently to get ahead, to dominate, to invent, to create something new... for the first half of Cantr there were new layers of technology being added semi-regularly. New tools, new machines, new processes, new advances (vehicles, engines, fuels, sails). It always seemed like towns were catching up to new technologies, and players knew that new technologies were just on the horizon. There was a sense of advance, of possibility, that one could 'win' in the sense of building power or being first to create something. Better organized societies were better positioned to capitalize on these possibilities, and so, societies better organized.

Cantr is a roleplaying game, but it's still a game. Pure roleplaying alone - a creative, collective, interactive fiction writing exercise - will attract a certain, self-selecting group of people, but it will always be pretty small. But add an element of reward, competition, 'winning' in a game sense, and it will attract a larger audience. New layers of technology are required for this.

A year ago, I proposed a system for implementing guns and gunpowder. It's complex, but not too complex. It would give organized societies advantages over disorganized ones. It was shot down, largely for this reason I think. Maybe it's the wrong suggestion... maybe some other technological advance would be better... but no technological advances means status quo in terms of the game, and that means status quo in terms of our player base and opportunities for character growth.

bnphlan wrote:War. No one likes war, but conflict is good to a point. Players can sit and sleep or choose to follow a calling to go off to a distant land and fight for a good cause. This is something that should be more in game than out of game discussion. English versus Polish war would be very interesting.

I think bnphlan is onto something here, but I would phrase it differently. Namely, that risk - already minimal in the game - has now been almost entirely removed. Because there's a small but vocal contingent of players, especially now, for whom roleplaying comes first, foremost, and always... any game mechanic that threatens death or even unsought turmoil for characters is roundly shouted down. Characters generally live forever now, if they want to.

This has unintentionally been made worse by an accretion of changes to game mechanics over the years. It was always hard to organize a war or be a villain or to sow chaos, but now it's even harder:

- Whispers can be overheard. Virtually impossible these days for people in towns to plot a revolution in the open.
- Radios... ubiquitous. They make it easy to broadcast a description, location, and direction of any thief to all points simultaneously. Or, to coordinate defense against military attack... Being a thief or warmonger was always hard, now it's virtually impossible.
- NDS. Makes death reversible.
- Caffeinated beverages. Invented to make it possible to eliminate fatigue due to many things, but chiefly, due to combat. Later, neutered completely because they made it possible to eliminate fatigue due to many things, but chiefly, due to combat. Now just a silly, useless aspect of the game that no one cares about.
- The advent of more, and more powerful, healing items/beverages. Now it's easily possible to carry enough healing food to regenerate completely four or five times... making kidnapping a much more complicated affair. (would add to this, herb gardens... no need to travel great distances to gather rare herbs for healing liquids... they can be grown in mass quantities right in your home town).

No one of these things is that big a deal, but together, they point to the fact that Cantr is risk averse. Changes that have been implemented, reduce risk. Changes that have been implemented that increased risk, were quickly reversed or shouted down. Can't have people gaining unfair advantages over others, possibly jeopardizing characters in whom WE HAVE INVESTED SO MUCH.

But without risk, and without reward, games are pretty boring.

See: Cantr, current state.

I'm not saying the roleplaying is boring, by the way. There's enough creative, interesting writers in the game that the roleplaying always has the potential, at least, to be fun. But the -game- is boring. And that does cut down quite a bit on the variety and quality of roleplaying opportunities as well.

I'd fix Cantr by adding more potential for reward, with new technologies to aspire to, new things to strive for, new ways to get ahead, to "win" in life... and by adding more risk, more danger, more ways for characters to be threatened, to fail, to "lose" in life, even to die. Anything to get away from the stultifying status quo. I enjoy the roleplaying for its own sake, as I know many of you do as well... you have to, to enjoy Cantr. But apparently, and kind of obviously, we are a terribly small group of people. And even we might enjoy the game more, if we were willing to take a risk on finding out.

If you want to "fix," Cantr, you need to take the players out of the equation. What do I mean by that? I mean that we're putting a diverse mix of people into a stale environment and not only expecting them to amuse themselves, but to do creative things that amuse others as well. That's crazy. We cannot expect the players to create their own stimuli without giving them anything - plants don't grow without energy input (sunlight) into a system. There is no energy being put into Cantr, at least not enough to allow the players to flourish.

saztronic wrote:There is no way in the game currently to get ahead, to dominate, to invent, to create something new... for the first half of Cantr there were new layers of technology being added semi-regularly. New tools, new machines, new processes, new advances (vehicles, engines, fuels, sails). It always seemed like towns were catching up to new technologies, and players knew that new technologies were just on the horizon. There was a sense of advance, of possibility, that one could 'win' in the sense of building power or being first to create something. Better organized societies were better positioned to capitalize on these possibilities, and so, societies better organized.

Saztronic's quote demonstrates a form of energy input. It stimulated the players buy giving them more to do. However, that's still insufficient, because it's both transient and requires an enormous amount of talent investment by the staff to code (significant) new things. Adding a new dress or ring just doesn't cut it, we'd need to keep adding layers of tech constantly, which isn't a realistic expectation.

Decay and rot is realistic and useful, but it's not interesting. Things that aren't interesting are not going to hold people's interest. Let's face it: No one is ever going to take their car to a mechanic to fix it when they can just do it themselves. The very nature of the game mechanics has forced Cantr into a DIY culture. Nobody needs anyone else for anything. Decay will not stimulate an economy.

Taking people out of the equation means forcing them to make decisions and not relying on them to magically start doing interesting things absent any stimulus.

FORCE COOPERATION
-Big ships being sailed by one person? Get rid of it.
-Same with most complicated machines. The higher tech, the more people needed to use it. (but with significant output bonuses)

MAKE LIFE DANGEROUS!
-Implement some outside danger. I'm not talking tornados, I'm talking something like "The Creatures in the Interspace." What's between towns? The Creatures, of course (think The Village). What do they do? Generally nothing, but once in a while, they'll pay a visit. They'll do significant damage. They may even kidnap people or steal your machines and resources. Break your locks. Tired of your town because you just don't like the people? Well, head off down the road, and there's a chance no one may ever hear from you again. Let your town grow complacent in it's anti-Creature defenses? A hoard may over-run your town. An active and well-run town should have a low risk of danger, but it should never be eliminated.

USE CARROTS AND STICKS
-Reward player behavior we like (cooperation), and punish behavior we don't like. Sleeping for days on end? Punish that. Never again should there be sleeping characters hanging around for hundreds of days. Sleeping should be lethal in the long term. (For example, maybe no eating if you haven't been active in the 8 hours since the last eating tick - we hate automation, so why do we permit this?). Players with legitimate reasons for not playing could hibernate their characters - they don't eat but also don't starve, and they can't be holding or wearing anything at all. Add a 25% productivity bonus for each person working on a project beyond the first. 2 people do the work of 2.5. 3 people, 3.75. Make it even more! Cooperation, cooperation, cooperation.

FARMVILLE EFFECT
Having stuff just there to take is uninteresting and is the primary flaw in the game design. People should plant their crops and harvest them in cycles. Convert all growable resources to seed and force them to be grown like herbs. At best, a character should be able to "forage" for food at a 1:2 ratio, i.e. one day of foraging leads to two days of food. Don't want to bother farming? Steal your neighbors food crop! Conflict, oh my!

NO MORE FREE ELECTRICITY
Make any electronics require a generator that consumes fuel. Radio problem mostly solved.

ELIMINATE SET PRICING
Prices are set by the game mechanics. Eliminate it! How much silver can Bob dig? Make it dependent not only on Bob's skill, but on the quality of his pickaxe, the density of silver in a location, and luck. The more variable you put into a product, the harder it is to price. I just paid 60 days for a domesticated pig. Does anyone think that price was based on calculations? Hell no! There's far too many variables! It was simply a price I was willing to pay for a pig, and that's how EVERYTHING should be in Cantr. EDIT: Also, remove the notice about how much can be gathered in one day. You can still type in how long you want to work, or how much you want to gather, but it won't tell you the baseline like it does now.

I think everyone is making nice points.

I had a slight epiphany while responding to Seko's dream/wish thread. I have some really boring characters that are just taking up space. Could easily kill off 7 or 8 characters and not miss them. I had always justified this by saying I was just doing the dirty work that no one else likes to do so that others could be able to do what they wanted but I'm not sure it works that way. Like Doug's post suggests its too easy to be lazy in Cantr. Just sit around and gather food or something for yourself and maybe others in tow and just exist. Perhaps it shouldn't be so easy to be a lazy character.

I like most things Doug wrote, but if sailing a ship took more than one person, there's just too high a chance that the other character(s) would die at random and leave you drifting in the middle of the sea because you can't force anyone to keep playing. I've played Puzzle Pirates and there was never a mission where the same people would've stayed from the beginning of the trip to the end. Fortunately people could join in the middle of the sea, and unfilled spots were covered by NPCs that were always average, while regular players could be better than average, or worse if they were slacking off or still learning.

‘Fixing’ Cantr would require enough changes that would probably make it more feasible to probably lay the groundwork for rewriting the code from the ground up.

Some changes I would like to see:

Skills Rework – Having skills randomly assigned by “genetic” selection of other characters in the area is not all that great. It is clear that there are many who spawn a character, and leave it to sleep permanently due to it not having the skills they want it to have for what they created it for. Players should be given the chance to choose how their characters are developed in regards to skills. There are many ways this can be done, and I can write out some examples later.

Combat – OMG this is one that really needs an overhaul. Like others have said, it is slow and boring. There are ways to accommodate both the slower paced characters and the speedier ones, so it should be done. Here is a simplified chart of its current state:
Bob hits Tim -> Countdown timer for Bob starts at 24 hours
Tim hits Bob -> Countdown timer for Tim starts at 24 hours
Now they just kinda stare at each other for a whole day.
Compromised possibility:
Bob hits Tim -> Countdown timer for Bob starts at 24 hours
Tim hits Bob -> Countdown timer for Tim starts at 24 hours AND removes timer for Bob (allowing Bob to hit again)
Bob hits Tim -> Countdown timer for Bob starts at 24 hours AND removes timer for Tim (allowing Tim to hit again)
Basically this defaults to the original “Wait a day before attacking again” that is in place for the slower paced players, but also giving a way for those who are online more to play out battles more quickly.

Secondly, the skills utilized to determine fighting abilities should be expanded so that it all isn’t lumped into one skill. Each weapon should have its own proficiency which has to be improved by actually using it (a good case for the creation of ‘test dummies’ or something?).
There are more, but this isn’t going to turn into yet another combat rewrite thread, so I will leave it at that.
Actually, that is it for skills in general as it is getting long enough. I will consider writing up another post to go into more detail.
Manufacturing – Characters should produce items relevant to their skill level. Being horrible at cooking shouldn’t just delay the project by X tics, but should also make it of lower quality. Being really bad should also introduce penalties such as possibility of making people sick or something. Expand this example to the other areas of manufacturing (ie. tool makers having poorly made tools makes projects take longer with possible chance of tool breaking if the maker was bad enough).

Repairs – Repairs should cost resources and possibly replacement of parts (if a multi part item). It shouldn’t be high enough to make it ridiculous, but should be of a decently realistic value. This would open up possibilities in many areas.

One of the bigger changes though to ‘fix’ Cantr might also come across as being more controversial in nature. Cantr is not fun to really play with friends and/or family. People enjoy playing games with friends/family and while they technically could do that, they can’t really play WITH them, as they all have to keep separate and all that. This rule is important to keep things fair, and needs to be maintained, but at the same time we should look at ways to make this fun/appealing for the demographics who typically like that ‘group’ experience.


There are more things I can add, but I have to leave soon. I will consider adding to this later when I get home.

SekoETC wrote:I like most things Doug wrote, but if sailing a ship took more than one person, there's just too high a chance that the other character(s) would die at random and leave you drifting in the middle of the sea because you can't force anyone to keep playing.

True enough. There's already a check to make sure people are on deck, so how about:

-Need two people on deck to keep sails raised.
-One person on deck means no sails.
-slash non-sail speed 75%
-Introduce a rowing project to get yourself back to base speed (which also causes tiredness).

Wind should affect sailing speed, and high winds should damage sails and require them to be repaired.

Cdls wrote:
Skills Rework – Having skills randomly assigned by “genetic” selection of other characters in the area is not all that great. It is clear that there are many who spawn a character, and leave it to sleep permanently due to it not having the skills they want it to have for what they created it for. Players should be given the chance to choose how their characters are developed in regards to skills. There are many ways this can be done, and I can write out some examples later.

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The more I play the more I am falling into strongly agreeing with this idea and to expand on it further. I'm also a strong believer that the product should be affected as well. Everyone can make wine. Some should be able to make better wine than others. Person X's wine should heal more than Person Y's. Person Y's war hammer should do more damage than person X's Person Z's crowbar should have a better chance at breaking a lock than Person A's. Person B's engine should be more fuel efficient that Person C's...Less parity in quality from one character to the next.

Item quality would be interesting.

*Wiro wrote:Item quality would be interesting.

One problem we have is that these ideas get debated endlessly... there are whole threads where they've already been thrashed to within an inch of their lives, the pros and cons put up and discussed, etc.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6601&hilit=item+quality

That's a thread from nine years ago on this topic that Doug, Seko and myself all contributed to... this is not inspiring of hope.

Doug R. wrote:ELIMINATE SET PRICING
Prices are set by the game mechanics. Eliminate it! How much silver can Bob dig? Make it dependent not only on Bob's skill, but on the quality of his pickaxe, the density of silver in a location, and luck. The more variable you put into a product, the harder it is to price. I just paid 60 days for a domesticated pig. Does anyone think that price was based on calculations? Hell no! There's far too many variables! It was simply a price I was willing to pay for a pig, and that's how EVERYTHING should be in Cantr.

There's several ideas I like a lot here (and others that I don't like even a bit, like the kids thing). This one was probably one of my favourites. I tend to like markets that regulate themselves better, where the break even price is settled itself instead of imposed (not exactly the word I'm seeking, but I'm struggling with lack of vocabulary here). Necessity and availability are also primal aspects for me (actually, more important than a mere «You can get 600 grams of wood per day if you're an efficient lumberjack and have an axe») and I love the idea of a worn out tool being less efficient.

Along this same concept, the fact that repairs have a cost, besides of the opportunity cost, makes total sense for me and I find it also a very interesting addition.

Newer layers of technology would be really amazing to keep markets and even societies more alive, but I have not the slightest idea about programming and I fear it would be too hard for the developpers.


I also agree that the lack of real danger or risk can lead to a certain degree of stagnation. When it comes to wars, as mentioned, it depends solely on the players and their motivations and I ignore if there's anymore any deep source of conflict. I'm not speaking here about someone who wants to wipe out a town for the sake of doing it but about conflicts between two societies/clans/religions/ideals/etc. Cooperation is needed here, even if it goes against my personal interests as I tend to be a «solo player» of late, I do believe that cohesion and cooperation would bring many good things. (Yes, I'm trying to improve my game on that aspect). The idea of a source of risk coming from the outside, further than the random psycho, sounds very appealing to me also; that and making some things a little bit «harder», just as a sand road makes driving slower than driving on a highway, I'd love if winds had an effect on sailing.


I wish I had something to add about the combat system, but I'm not that smart. I do think it could be better, but I sadly don't have any valid idea to offer.

Doug R. wrote:USE CARROTS AND STICKS
-Reward player behavior we like (cooperation), and punish behavior we don't like. Sleeping for days on end? Punish that. Never again should there be sleeping characters hanging around for hundreds of days. Sleeping should be lethal in the long term. (For example, maybe no eating if you haven't been active in the 8 hours since the last eating tick - we hate automation, so why do we permit this?). Players with legitimate reasons for not playing could hibernate their characters - they don't eat but also don't starve, and they can't be holding or wearing anything at all.

Sheer idiocy.
People have real life commitments out there, not everyone has will and possibility to log on daily, especially just to see Bob & Tom making out. And Sandy having a hissy fit about Mike's pants' colour (seriously).

olekmassacre wrote:

Doug R. wrote:USE CARROTS AND STICKS
-Reward player behavior we like (cooperation), and punish behavior we don't like. Sleeping for days on end? Punish that. Never again should there be sleeping characters hanging around for hundreds of days. Sleeping should be lethal in the long term. (For example, maybe no eating if you haven't been active in the 8 hours since the last eating tick - we hate automation, so why do we permit this?). Players with legitimate reasons for not playing could hibernate their characters - they don't eat but also don't starve, and they can't be holding or wearing anything at all.

Sheer idiocy.
People have real life commitments out there, not everyone has will and possibility to log on daily, especially just to see Bob & Tom making out. And Sandy having a hissy fit about Mike's pants' colour (seriously).

Sheer idiocy? That seems like a rather harsh evaluation of the suggestion, especially since your only objection is, apparently, that sometimes Cantr is too boring to bother to log in for. Sounds to me like having better attitudes might be a good start for how to 'fix' the game.

Personally, I'd be spending my attention on the user interface, making it much easier for new players to learn.
I also really love the idea(s) about actual farming. I think that's a layer of complexity that would bring a lot of interesting sim-based gameplay. Planning ahead and building up towards a player-created sustainable system would be a great motivator, and farming mechanics seems perfect for that. If the game can be fun for a character living alone, it'll just be more fun for characters living in groups.