Combat system revamp discussion - part 1

[Bmot]

(first: this is in no way an official staff topic, I'm just posting this because I personally think this is something that should be discussed first, as opposed to people just throwing even more suggestions against RD/ProgD etc)

So. In the light of the numerous suggestions about Cantr's combat system, I decided to start this thread to discuss a possible combat system without the pressure of a suggestion. This means people can freely spout ideas, opinions and everything without needing to be guided by the specific suggestion. I'm sharing dragging (certainly of people) under combat-system for now, as I consider this to be a big part of Cantrian "combat".

To keep this thread (or, to-be series of threads) organized, I decided it might be wise to split the discussion, starting with part one:

What do you want to accomplish by changing the combat system (or, don't you want to change it?)
- What do you consider wrong, in the current system?
- Do you want it more realistic?
- Would you like a difference between ranged and melee weapons, a different hit/miss system, etc.?
- Would you like the system to be slower or quicker?
- How do you feel about the current dragging system?
- Is there anything else I forgot? (probably, and I hope so)

Well, you get my drift. Feel free to discuss, but try to keep it on the "what" and "why" part, the "how" part we'll save for later.

So, tell me

[Snickie]

What do you want to accomplish by changing the combat system (or, don't you want to change it?)
I'm personally.... "happy" isn't the right word to describe it since I'm pretty sure it's impossible to be happy with the current system unless you're Yugo and his happy friends who go around places massacring people. (I do believe that nerfing tea was a bit ridiculous...) Maybe I'm more resigned about it all. I don't think a large-scale change like people keep suggesting is necessary, or even practical, since people will just find ways to exploit it too.

I think the addition of near-death state was one of the best things that ever happened to the combat system, by the way.

Dragging is another story.

- What do you consider wrong, in the current system?
Fighting (attacking and defending) in and of itself is fine. Although, I would really like a distinction between sparring and attacking.

- Do you want it more realistic?
I'm not going to answer this question because it's too vague.

- Would you like a difference between ranged and melee weapons, a different hit/miss system, etc.?
I would definitely like an in-game distinguishment between ranged and melee weapons. In fact, I wouldn't even mind a separate skill for it.

I believe hit/miss should be determined more by skill (especially for ranged weapons!) than by a singular, all-encompassing number. Shield bypassing should be by skill also, and effectiveness when not bypassed should be by strength.

- Would you like the system to be slower or quicker?
No.

Slowing it down in itself by anything more than, say, five minutes is unrealistic. And even then five minutes is a lifetime. I might be in the minority here, but I actually support the ability of Cantr pirates to be pirates and attack/loot towns.

Slowing it down by ticks? Don't we have enough ticks? Don't we have enough people living by the ticks?

Slowing it down by adding steps would force us to compensate in some manner. There was a suggestion where you had to "approach" someone and wait for a tick (during which you couldn't be doing anything else) before you could attack them, which I think is obnoxious because, as people there have pointed out, it takes no time to walk in and out of buildings within a town.

Honestly, the only thing in this manner that I would be in favor of would be of a new "equipment" feature, and what I'm thinking of would probably require some medium-to-extensive programming, I don't know. But it would basically be that having a weapon or shield in your inventory wouldn't mean you would automatically use them in any scenario, and you would have to "equip" your weapon (visible event unless you do it behind closed doors; also would make concealed weapons visible, which attacking someone with it would have done anyway) before you could use it to attack (and having a weapon or shield "unequipped" would boost project efficiency or something) (this also includes hunting).

I'm not going to argue the points against speeding it up because I'm pretty sure everybody is against speeding it up. At least, the physical combat, anyway.

- How do you feel about the current dragging system?
I'm going to lump dragging corpses and animals in with dragging people (not resource piles since that was solved with the "drag part of pile" feature). And that all basically means that if you don't have an improved wheelbarrow or a town of 35815 people all much stronger than average with expert fighting skill, you'll have to wait seventy years before you can drag that corpse, and that domesticated bushpig isn't going anywhere either. I think it's ridiculous that some people can carry 15k (sometimes more) but they can't drag the same amount. I think it's ridiculous that I can "work on" dragging a corpse for a year and it won't even budge. I think it's ridiculous that people can't lead around their larger domesticated animals, even the ones that are loyal specifically to them.

[kicking jay]

The Kicking Jay's Six Desires

1) I want ranged weapons to have a range advantage.
2) I want certain weapons to be good for certain strength/skill combos, instead of "crossbow if you're good, claymore if you're strong."
3) I want to be able to hit back and forth.
4) I want a reason for shields and weapons to not be held continuously.
5) I want to be able to parry and block attacks.
6) I want to have a reason to hold more than one weapon.

Dragging is so screwed up I won't mention it past this sentence.

[Firetrout]

My (horribly bad) thoughts on this:

I believe that ranged weapons should have ammo consumption since it would give everyone something else to make, not to mention I'm pretty sure Cantrians just use them to skillfully club each other to death.

Also, if you're outside, someone attacking you with melee would have a small chance to receive damage (Pathetically small damage, but one that bypasses the shield, which would be applied before his/her damage applies to you), because someone running at you from across the field would be pretty easy to spot, but you're not going to have all day to aim that bow. The only weapons that would be immune to this would be "concealed" weapons like daggers because, well, they're not visible. This would require ammo, of course.

I also believe that hit/miss should be governed by skill and that strength should determine how quickly you get tired.

[kicking jay]

I also believe that hit/miss should be governed by skill...

Same.

...and that strength should determine how quickly you get tired.

D: Beautiful and perfect! I shall begin drafting formulas post haste!

[Ericis]

I'm fairly new to the game so I cant comment on much, but I do think that the game needs increased effectiveness of liquids that restore tiredness.

[SekoETC]

Energy restoration used to be much more effective, leading into a group of four people massacring two towns. Several people died. It was deemed the game wasn't supposed to be played that way and people got their characters revived unless they specifically said they wanted to remain dead. I've heard that there had been similar massacres on the Polish region in the past but no one ever reported them in English, so the part of staff that doesn't know Polish had no idea such a thing had happened.

I like the ability of stabbing people instantly without having to get stuck in a combat project. Also the addition of tiredness ensures no single person can massacre a town.

Back before tiredness was introduced, massacres were commonplace, and some towns had sweeps to kill of sleepers. This was back when it was common for some towns to have 30 or even 50 people. Also there were no skills, so everybody was equal.

I think what we need is some sort of a system that allows the strong to protect the weak, and/or the masses to protect an individual. Currently everybody only defends themselves instead of defending their community or group. If there were mechanics where there were strength in numbers, it would encourage people to team up.

Also it would be good if a group of weak people could overpower a strong individual. Currently they can drag, but they can not combine their strength to bypass the victim's shield, even if they attacked at the same time. In real life a mob throwing rocks can hurt an armed person who wears combat armor.

Currently it takes a lot of clicking to hit a person who is running between buildings, so I think it would be good if there was an automated way of attacking the person as he comes out, but with a chance of failure. The attacker would continue reattempting to attack each time the running person enters, but the runner would be alarmed after the first attack attempt and would know they are being targeted. Also if there was a window, it would be possible to notice from the other side that somebody has auto-attack on.

I think bows should require ammo, but at the same time they should be useful from attacking from a distance. Also you couldn't attack with a bow from close range, unless you used it as a bashing weapon.

When it comes to complicated projects, it's always something like this:

[Otherside]

This is something I have a lot of ideas about... For example:

Arrows: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=25902

Dragging Reform: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=26225

Stealth: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=26202

But I'll start with the questions, briefly:

What do you want to accomplish by changing the combat system (or, don't you want to change it?)

I want a balanced system that is hard to abuse, and therefore leaves players feeling like they at least had a fair chance of survival, in all cases.

- What do you consider wrong, in the current system?

Due to time zones etc. Players can disappear in seconds without any chance of survival whatsoever.

- Do you want it more realistic?

Yes.

- Would you like a difference between ranged and melee weapons, a different hit/miss system, etc.?

Possibly.

- Would you like the system to be slower or quicker?

Neither, just balanced.

- How do you feel about the current dragging system?

It should not be hidden, dragging should be visible, join-able projects, as per my above suggestion.

- Is there anything else I forgot? (probably, and I hope so)

Yes... How about this....

Dragging becomes a visible project as per my suggestion, it did get the majority vote... Unless STEALTH is applied before hand. This gives a chance that the action is hidden... Realistic.

And, let me propose one more option. GUARD. When guarded, a character will attack the next character that drags them, or attacks them or anyone in their vicinity. This gives the profession of Guard much more use, and those Guarded, should use 2.5% Tiredness per tick. (Discuss). This will also force the need of effective guard rotation... or Guard mode application.

No armed to the teeth behemoth of a character will go without a fight, and this emulates that.

Also, back to stealth. This should amplify the damage from daggers/concealed weaponry and bows. This allows the roles of sniper, and ranged guard. When used alongside stealth, guarded characters could get an effective +80% damage (Discuss) with a ranged or concealed weapon. Think about it... If properly guarded, a kidnap attempt could go hideously wrong with a couple of well aimed arrows.... or waking up and sticking a dagger in the attackers side... as per real life.

Edit: Once Guard mode has been triggered it is broken... Imagine a team of fighters, all guarded, facing each other. When one attacks, he/she will get hell... this will cause stalemates and the strategic sacrifice of a pawn, as with real battles. Then let the war commence...

[BosBaBe]

This is something I have a lot of ideas about... For example:

Arrows: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=25902

Dragging Reform: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=26225

Stealth: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=26202

But I'll start with the questions, briefly:

What do you want to accomplish by changing the combat system (or, don't you want to change it?)

I want a balanced system that is hard to abuse, and therefore leaves players feeling like they at least had a fair chance of survival, in all cases.

- What do you consider wrong, in the current system?

Due to time zones etc. Players can disappear in seconds without any chance of survival whatsoever.

- Do you want it more realistic?

Yes.

- Would you like a difference between ranged and melee weapons, a different hit/miss system, etc.?

Possibly.

- Would you like the system to be slower or quicker?

Neither, just balanced.

- How do you feel about the current dragging system?

It should not be hidden, dragging should be visible, join-able projects, as per my above suggestion.

- Is there anything else I forgot? (probably, and I hope so)

Yes... How about this....

Dragging becomes a visible project as per my suggestion, it did get the majority vote... Unless STEALTH is applied before hand. This gives a chance that the action is hidden... Realistic.

And, let me propose one more option. GUARD. When guarded, a character will attack the next character that drags them, or attacks them or anyone in their vicinity. This gives the profession of Guard much more use, and those Guarded, should use 2.5% Tiredness per tick. (Discuss). This will also force the need of effective guard rotation... or Guard mode application.

No armed to the teeth behemoth of a character will go without a fight, and this emulates that.

Also, back to stealth. This should amplify the damage from daggers/concealed weaponry and bows. This allows the roles of sniper, and ranged guard. When used alongside stealth, guarded characters could get an effective +80% damage (Discuss) with a ranged or concealed weapon. Think about it... If properly guarded, a kidnap attempt could go hideously wrong with a couple of well aimed arrows.... or waking up and sticking a dagger in the attackers side... as per real life.

Edit: Once Guard mode has been triggered it is broken... Imagine a team of fighters, all guarded, facing each other. When one attacks, he/she will get hell... this will cause stalemates and the strategic sacrifice of a pawn, as with real battles. Then let the war commence...

This. Guarding and stealth are the main things I want, and a better dragging system. I agree with Snickie, it's ridiculous that dragging takes so long, that you can't lead animals, that you can carry 15 kg but you can't drag that. As Otherside said, dragging should be visible, but it can be hidden with a stealth option as long as you have the skill.

I also think, if Stealth is a skill, it should be granted to expert fighters, but only for those from average strength down. There would be nothing more OP than the huge monster man wielding a battle axe, sneaking in without anyone seeing him. This would mean that a team of fighters is necessary, brute strength and subtle precision.

I also agree that stealth based weapons like daggers, bows and short swords, should also gain a tactical advantage if in stealth mode, and have a higher chance of getting past a shield. This is the whole point of stealthing anyways, getting past your enemies defense, killing them without them being aware. But, there should be a failure/success rate, as a poorly skilled assassin is bound to slip up.

In terms of guarding, I agree 100%. And if people can be grouped, it would be even better, so guards don't only defend themselves, they defend their fellow guards. It can take 2.5% tiredness on each tick, till the guard will have to go off to rest and be replaced by the next guard on duty. Guards with ranged weapons and the stealth skill should be able to attack with more precision with their bows and crossbows.

But this does lead to one problem. If this is put in place, players will know not to attack the guards, and go for the townsfolk first. So, to counter this, I think the guarding system should tie in with the location, and that there should be a difference between sparring and attacking. So the guards will guard a location as well as themselves, and if anyone gets attacked within the location, the guards will automatically attack. The only problem I can see with this is that if people accidentally attack someone with a weapon, they'll get attacked by the guards. But if we implement the other suggestions, like having weapons equipped and you can only attack with them once you've drawn them, which would be visible to everyone, it would mean less people attack others by mistake, because of the steps required. Guards of course, while guarding, will always have their weapons drawn, so they can attack instantly.

I won't answer the questions because essentially I agree with Otherside. Refer to his answers above. Not sure about his last edit though. xD I don't think attackers should be able to go into guard mode, because then essentially they would be attacked for attacking their targets in the location. But I do agree that once a guard attacks, they should go out of Guard mode.

[Otherside]

But this does lead to one problem. If this is put in place, players will know not to attack the guards, and go for the townsfolk first. So, to counter this, I think the guarding system should tie in with the location, and that there should be a difference between sparring and attacking. So the guards will guard a location as well as themselves, and if anyone gets attacked within the location, the guards will automatically attack. The only problem I can see with this is that if people accidentally attack someone with a weapon, they'll get attacked by the guards. But if we implement the other suggestions, like having weapons equipped and you can only attack with them once you've drawn them, which would be visible to everyone, it would mean less people attack others by mistake, because of the steps required. Guards of course, while guarding, will always have their weapons drawn, so they can attack instantly.

Sorry, the area thing was always as it was intended.. I should have been clearer, my mind was racing.

When guarded, a character will attack the next character that drags them, or attacks them or anyone in their vicinity.

But I agree that grouping of guards would be very useful, though probably hard code wise. And thankfully we have NDS if anyone out of the group attacks by mistake.

I also agree that strength should have a negative impact on the application of stealth. Assuming larger characters are bigger/clumsier. This should create the whole class of fighters that we see in other games and make stealthed weak expert bowmen formidable against a hulk with an axe!

The edit was just an afterthought whilst thinking about how the system could be abused... or used, with current tactics.

[kicking jay]

I also agree that strength should have a negative impact on the application of stealth. Assuming larger characters are bigger/clumsier. This should create the whole class of fighters that we see in other games and make stealthed weak expert bowmen formidable against a hulk with an axe!

I third that. I'm not really sure if anybody understood it when I posted it, but that suggestion was actually a way to make class divisions, even without stealth.

[*Wiro]

Attacks should be delayed (15 minutes between attacks or so?), so they cannot be stacked within a minute's time. And dragging made visible. Those are my two very simple additions to this subject.

As far as I know a delay between attacks was at one point accepted, waiting to be implemented.

[Bmot]

I won't answer the questions because essentially I agree with Otherside. Refer to his answers above. Not sure about his last edit though. xD I don't think attackers should be able to go into guard mode, because then essentially they would be attacked for attacking their targets in the location. But I do agree that once a guard attacks, they should go out of Guard mode.

Just for the record

Those questions were more meant as an inspiration, what kind of thing to discuss about, don't feel obligated to answer them exactly

[kicking jay]

Smaller weapons: dirks, dagger, spathas, etc., should be able to be used as a secondary weapon to parry attacks and possibly counterattack: if attacked, whether or not you're on guard, you would hit back with an attack from the secondary weapon which has a low chance of landing, but would always get past the shield.

What if shields are made a third as effective against human attackers, unless you're defending (yourself): a state where you work a third as fast but have full protection from any attackers and possibly a better chance of a successful counterattack?

[Snickie]

I feel like this conversation is turning into a "This is exactly what I would like to see happen with the combat system (and all of it probably involves intense programming but I'm not going to mention that because I want to stay on GreeK's good side and hope everyone picks my suggestion so he has to implement it)" thing...

The game is complicated enough. We don't need to make it more complicated with "stealth" and "guard" modes. Automation of attacking goes against the principles of the game as well. Cantr is a society simulator and roleplay game (depending on how you play it). It is not a combat game where people go through just to "kill all the things" (unless you're Yugo&Friends). Combat happens, of course, but not on a large scale except for sparring, at least in the English zone.

Which is why I support a distinction between fighting and sparring, and a possible "equipment" system (because honestly that should be no more difficult than the "wear clothes" function). And almost nothing else besides possibly a reevaluation of some of the numbers. Distinction between melee and ranged weapons would be nice, but I don't feel it's actually necessary, especially if it would mean changing the whole game just to accomodate it.

(All of this barring dragging, of course. I've made my complaints about dragging already. This is not the thread to discuss specific ways of changing it, only to communicate what we like/don't like about the system.)