Realism in Cantr - a discussion thread

[Bmot]

In the light of some recent suggestions by (mainly newer) players, I thought this might be an interesting discussion, maybe a quite important one too, for the longer-term direction Cantr suggestions will go.

Cantr is known (at least within the player base) for it's weird quirks, carrying gas in your pocket, incapable of attacking a species of animals more than once a days, sailing against the wind etc. etc. And that's to not even get started about day and night and ticks.

Lately, lots of suggestions have been made to make (parts of) Cantr more realistic. That shows at least a part of the player base would like to see Cantr being more realistic, and so less quirky.

However, I can very well imagine (even though those voices might be less strong) that, certainly older players, like the quirkiness and would like Cantr to stay a bit weird in some things.

So, what do you think? Discuss

[Swingerzetta]

Well, from what I've seen, I think a lot of this affection for quirkiness comes from a desire to keep things relatively easy for their characters. At the moment, character survival chances are really high, unless they go wandering in the wilderness naked. (same as real life) Any suggestion that hints at making survival less likely gets attacked. So if the game suddenly required clothing for warmth, or refridgeration for raw meat, or containers for storing gas and propane, those characters living out in the extremes of cantr survival might not be able to survive.

Old players probably dislike these realism ideas because it puts their beloved characters at risk. New players like them because it wouldn't require a personal sacrifice, and would make the game easier for them to learn.

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[Greek]

It's impossible to make everything realistic and it's good that we have some simplifications to make normal playing possible. I wouldn't mind making some things more realistic as long as they don't make game harder for players - by for example requiring a few hundreds of clicks to perform everyday tasks.
For me, the most important aspect, which should always be kept as realistic as possible, are people's interactions and models of cooperation based on real life. I'd like to see less chatrooms and more society simulation.
Currently greed or provoking conflicts is RP-based in 90% of cases.
Being altruistic by helping in any project yields just positive results (skill gain) over not doing anything. People don't need anything after getting basic stuff and some rice or potatoes.

[Genie]

Lately I am trying to recruit new players for Cantr from different countries and they lose their interest after reading about all the rules and mechanics. They are finding all too hard to learn. Cantr is very technical and it gives us many abilities for rping and creating. I started playing during the time limits and I still admire new settings and easy features about the projects. I enjoy many changes in the game ,infact I enjoy the rp and the interactions more. How different people can be, how many different life styles can be created and the almost scientific details of the dynamics. Even not all of my chars are very involved they like their possiblities. It is nice some of our players are very eager and they want to make Cantr more real for their characters. I just wonder how far it can go? After all we are imagining many things and our minds are making them real for us so we can lay our hair down for a while. Cantr is already in progress and it is changing often

[SekoETC]

It should always be taken into account that when a new language group starts, they start from scratch, no buildings, no tools, no clothing, no piles of resources, so the game should always be in a state where such a group starting from scratch will be able to survive long enough to make it to a higher level of technology. But there should also be benefits of reaching that higher state of technology. Currently you mainly see this in the form of tools boosting resource collection, and prepared food being better on the roads. It could go further than that. One possible thing would be items that speed up manufacturing time on certain projects, for example a sewing machine that speeds up anything that uses a needle (maybe exceptions could be ruled out) or a knitting machine for anything that uses knitting needles. Things like this would make the game easier for those who put in the extra effort without taking anything away from those who don't, because nothing would change for those people.

[SumBum]

It's impossible to make everything realistic and it's good that we have some simplifications to make normal playing possible. I wouldn't mind making some things more realistic as long as they don't make game harder for players ....

This.

I do like that Cantr has some quirks that make it different from real life. There's no magic in Cantr but some of its quirks are magical in a sense and you could really have some fun with those differences during gameplay.

More importantly, some of those quirks make gameplay easier. Cantr is meant to be playable with limited time. Over-complicating basic tasks only makes the game more tedious and time-consuming. Besides, keeping unnecessary mouse clicking out of the game means players have more time for interactions. Sometimes realism needs to make way for convenience.

[bnlphan]

Seko makes a very very very good point.

If you take a newspawn and put him in a town with no buildings no machines. They will most likely not last. Trust me I try it every now and then for the challenge Even if there is natural nourishing and healing foods its tough. Eventually I get beat up by the animals to the point where I kill my charries with his own bone club or bone spear to finish him off. Even in some of the more developed areas of the game. Its still very difficult to survive in certain areas without the support of the advanced societies in the area. Any time a change is made that makes the game more difficult is detrimental to characters/players in this situation.

And Yes there has to be a reward of advancement as well. Keeping things balanced. Dont punish the unequipped loner but dont slow down the metropolitan cities.

[hyrle]

For me - I'm not opposed to making the game harder for those who have plenty. If you're going to have a large town with lots of buildings, lots of vehicles and lots of tools and resources, then I firmly believe that there should be some maintenance that goes into having that large amount of stuff and keeping it going. Slow building decay, slow vehicle decay and resource decay in "compromised" (e.g. crumbling buildings) would go a long way to making the game realistic. I've been watching shows called "Abandoned" and "Forgotten Earth" which show places that mankind has abandoned, and after a few decades of neglect, nature starts to take over. There's no sense of "crumbling ruins" of abandoned places in Cantr. I've come across abandoned camps where the last activities are in the 1000's, yet buildings and vehicles are still "brand new", and any non-tool resources inside are all plentiful and in a state of perpetual preservation. I feel like exploring "ruins" should be a real possibility in Cantr as well. That kind of realism is something I support... after all, repair mechanics are not at all difficult gameplay-wise. It will be inconvenient for leaders of largely abandoned towns, but realistic.

[Swingerzetta]

I sure do get tired of tasks that require mouse clicking now that I use a tablet, and mouse clicking means zooming and poking over and over until I hit the right button. I like complexity quite a bit, but when I speak of this, I certainly don't mean making one task complicated to perform for the player.
For example, something I really like is how roads and vehicles work together. The roads could have been simpler. Vehicles might have had their top speed, which remains constant regardless of weight or road quality, and roads would need upgrading to allow faster vehicles to travel on them at all. That would still work. But instead, we have a more complex, interesting, and realistic system, where the vehicle, road, and weight all play a part in how fast a car goes.

People have been mentioning, too, in this thread, the steep learning curve of this game. I think that's the one aspect of cantr that most needs changing, if anything. But realism isn't really tied to that, necessarily, I think. For example, something that every new player struggles with is helping people drag other people. It doesn't show up on the activities panel, and attempting to drag the person directly fails. It's confusing. Going to the initiator and clicking the otherwise unfamiliar P button is not obvious.

If realism was involved, a person being dragged, or attempting to be dragged, would be a visible situation, and you could join the project right from the projects page, or simply drag the victim in the same direction and have your two projects merge. (Although there are a lot of other changes that would need to happen before I would be willing to describe cantr dragging mechanics as realistic, but that's not the point)

I'm sure there are examples of how realism might make things MORE confusing for new players, too. But my point is that realism can have a chance of lining up with a person's expectations to how the game would work, allowing them to do the things they want to do on their first try, without having to read instruction manuals or ask other players for advice.

[Cdls]

I sure do get tired of tasks that require mouse clicking now that I use a tablet, and mouse clicking means zooming and poking over and over until I hit the right button.

This has to do more with layout issues than anything. It would be nice to have layout redesigned with the trend in responsive design, especially to accommodate a portion of the portable crowd.


Making Cantr realistic would require require a lot of work, and am not for realism in certain forms, but the game can benefit from some changes in that direction. For example:

1) Food should expire.
2) The ability to manufacture things should be dependent on skill level (ie. a crossbow dealing massive damage shouldn't be made by someone who is awkward making weapons), or at the very least, have the quality of the item degraded due to lack of skill (that crossbow made by someone awkward would be about as deadly as a longbow).
3) Dragging should be based on strength moreso than fighting skill.
4) Fat people should have to eat more.

[Doug R.]

What Greek said. I can't say it any better.

[Uma]

I personally like more realism in almost everything I can think of. I'd love it if you choose a hair color and it stuck, even if you inherited your hair color from the locals.

I'd love it if you could only care liquids in a container, if you could only care a maximum amount of anything without a container (who can carry a kilo of sand without a sack at least). I'd like if, based on the region, it was too hot or too cold without propper garb (mountains in winter = get a coat!). I'd like it if tattoos were done to you by some one with a skill. not with an edit of the description.

I'd like it if food resources shut down (or were terrible) in winter. if towns could experience seasonal rain that made food resources better! ( seasonal work patterns!)

I'd like it if decay happened in a logical way (stone doesn't , wheat does) or attractive vermin. I'd love it if buildings fell into heaps and you had to drag things out or repair them.

Though I know a lot of that would chase off new players maybe. it's hard to say. Some folks like a complex game. the problem with new players I think, is that you can't know them in real life so you can't 'join as friends' and work on something together...but I think that's good for the game too. forums can't come take over the game or army around ruining everyone's funs.

I think if you spawned new players with a knife, a sack, some food, and a note explaining how all these things work, and how they can survive....it may help a lot more than simple mechanics would.

[kicking jay]

You know, maybe when the newspawn island kicks in, main Cantr can become much more realistic.

[Genie]

That could be useful,though it must be for new accounts and it must come as an option.

[kicking jay]

I think if you spawned new players with a knife, a sack, some food, and a note explaining how all these things work, and how they can survive....it may help a lot more than simple mechanics would.

Isn't that the job of the towns, however?
Ooh, ooh. Maybe new players' first two chars should only spawn in towns larger than some size, so no new player ever gets in the old left-behind-by-the-pair-of-lovemaking-travelers situation again.