er... *shrugs* hows the harvesters?

[viktor]

well, when i first saw the notice i felt my heart stop.
then i had a look at the new stats on the machines, at first glance i was "omg... why make a machine when i can cheaply make a dung fork"
then i saw the fuel requirements, okay so, in many places this is not a bad thing and can be viewed as positive, in a few select places, they do become relatively antiquated but, overall, it's not a bad change. i can see how it cuts back on the 'overabundance' of food, and shifts more importance to fuel usage.

[Andu]

I think this is kinnd of nice, and even without fuel you can get stuff at bearable rate, like pickaxe/dungfork/shovel chained to the ground.

Is the update also for the oil derrick?

[Piscator]

The oil derrick didn't use fuel to begin with, so it has been left alone. It would probably also not be very difficult for the owner of an oil derrick to get the necessary fuel, so I guess it would be a bit pointless. It would basically equal reducing the output and add much running around.

[Andu]

Okay, stupid question...

Limestone quarry?

[Piscator]

Doesn't use fuel either, but maybe we'll introduce dynamite some day.

[viktor]

i'm starting to wonder if tooled rate is too much of a reduction, there are places that.. these machines are just very expensive and fancy looking tools chained to the ground due to lack of fuel sources, also that, making alcahol in most cases is not cost effective, nore petrol from timber, basically you MUST have gas or oil close by or these machines are not worth building, or leaving there when they can be dismantled for scrap... in a few regions/islands neways,

[mojomuppet]

They do not have to be close, you need chars willing to move it!

I dont like the rates either.

I will deal or die trying. Play on!

[viktor]

They do not have to be close, you need chars willing to move it!

noniwrok is a well known island, it has no gas or oil, on the whole island, there are other places in similar situation, moving to the gas and oil would mean mass exodus for some. i'm just stating a fact, these are okay in some areas while completely antiquated in others.

[mojomuppet]

They do not have to be close, you need chars willing to move it!

noniwrok is a well known island, it has no gas or oil, on the whole island, there are other places in similar situation, moving to the gas and oil would mean mass exodus for some. i'm just stating a fact, these are okay in some areas while completely antiquated in others.

\


Wait it out....

[Chris]

If the problem is large stores of food, then nerfing harvesters does not solve the problem. The rich are still rich, but the poor are prevented from using the same means to improve their condition.

[Doug R.]

They do not have to be close, you need chars willing to move it!

noniwrok is a well known island, it has no gas or oil, on the whole island, there are other places in similar situation, moving to the gas and oil would mean mass exodus for some. i'm just stating a fact, these are okay in some areas while completely antiquated in others.

Moving oil from Burgeo to Noniwrok is a trivial endeavor for a company with a few active characters, and the profit margin on such an endeavor would be high. Been there, done that, retired. Not a big deal

[cooldevo]

If the problem is large stores of food, then nerfing harvesters does not solve the problem. The rich are still rich, but the poor are prevented from using the same means to improve their condition.

I would say that you are right, it won't solve the glut of food in the game world. This wasn't done with the aim of being the fix for that. The collection rates were unreasonably high per dow investment for manual use.

The food part of the game has several key problems with it:

1. Raw food is rarely cooked, and when it is it doesn't reflect the proper dow invested. Raw food has to have it's dow brought into line to help make it easier to balance out cooked food.
2. Harvesters, as they were, were significantly overpowered. 1 days work manually with a potato harvester would feed 1 person for 40 game-days (that's two game-years) with raw potatoes. The dow on that is totally off compared to the rest of the food collection options.

This is what one would visualize the harvester to look something like (minus the horses): http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/49389/1/Horse-drawn%20Sunshine%20Harvester.jpg. How easy would it be for one person to run this alone and be anywhere near efficient? Of course we don't have horses and have the ability to fuel power them, but that is close to what it *should* be similar to.

Now, a harvester still should be able to output close to the original manual amount if 4 people are working the project. As per the picture above, imagine that you would have 1 person "driving" and 3 people "pulling" it instead of the horses. For every person less than that it becomes a harder and more complicated operation so production suffers.

And of course they still provide the benefit of not taking up a resource slot to use, which a dung-fork will still use up.

[Chris]

The food part of the game has several key problems with it:

1. Raw food is rarely cooked, and when it is it doesn't reflect the proper dow invested. Raw food has to have it's dow brought into line to help make it easier to balance out cooked food.
2. Harvesters, as they were, were significantly overpowered. 1 days work manually with a potato harvester would feed 1 person for 40 game-days (that's two game-years) with raw potatoes. The dow on that is totally off compared to the rest of the food collection options.

I don't see a problem with raw vs. cooked food. Both have their uses. Raw food is fine when you are staying put in a food-producing area. Cooked food is useful when you are traveling. I don't care what percent of RL food is cooked vs. raw. I care about game play. Let's not forget that the animal script is broken and has been for years. So meat to cook and dung as cooking fuel can't be sustainably replenished.

Why is the DOW for harvesters overpowered? One game balance goal has been to encourage trade and the specialization of towns. Towns with foods that can be harvested are the bread baskets, whereas mountain and forest towns have to rely on imports or meat. So the nerf is anti-trade. It's also anti-civilization. Food is the one necessity in Cantr. More time spent producing food means less time doing other things.

BTW, limited resource slots suck too, as far as game play is concerned. Discouraging large towns is bad for the game. Some people will naturally seek wide open spaces. However, many people like interaction. Resource gathering is something anyone can do, even without tools.

[cooldevo]

I don't see a problem with raw vs. cooked food. Both have their uses. Raw food is fine when you are staying put in a food-producing area. Cooked food is useful when you are traveling. I don't care what percent of RL food is cooked vs. raw. I care about game play. Let's not forget that the animal script is broken and has been for years. So meat to cook and dung as cooking fuel can't be sustainably replenished.

For starters meat and dung aren't the only food and fuel that can be used in cooking. For fuel, wood, propane, coal, and there is probably one I am missing are all available. And to help promote specialization and interaction one could also find a trader that will make fuel runs.

Why is the DOW for harvesters overpowered?

One days work feeding one person for two game-years isn't over powered? 7 days work with a potato harvester used by one person means a town of 7 people didn't have to worry about food for 2 years. Even after adjusting, a potato harvester can still put out what it used to, manually. If you finished reading my post it now takes 4 people to have that same effect. 4 people working 7 days for 2 years of food each. That still leaves each 33 days left (over 83% of their time) in the two year period to do whatever they want.

BTW, limited resource slots suck too, as far as game play is concerned. Discouraging large towns is bad for the game. Some people will naturally seek wide open spaces. However, many people like interaction. Resource gathering is something anyone can do, even without tools.

Then build some harvesters and you can largely ignore the limit and get better resource collection. 2 harvesters with 4 people each working on them would generate enough food to last a long time, and not take any precious resource slots. 4 people with dung forks will take up 4 resource slots. You can still be just as social working on a harvester as you can on a manual collection project.

[Piscator]

Why is the DOW for harvesters overpowered? One game balance goal has been to encourage trade and the specialization of towns. Towns with foods that can be harvested are the bread baskets, whereas mountain and forest towns have to rely on imports or meat. So the nerf is anti-trade. It's also anti-civilization.

The problem is that there were too many bread baskets and too little starving mountain towns. With the new setup, you can still produce large amounts of food if you have access to gas or oil (and still moderately large amounts with biodiesel). This simply means that fewer towns will be able to export food, which makes food more valuable as a trade good. It also improves the bargaining position of towns that can produce cheap fuels. If anything this change is pro-trade.