Cantr II Discussion Forum

First of all I wanted to say thanks to the people who sent me PMs saying they support "new" ideas for Cantr, and read my posts and the discussions generated around them with interest, even if we sometimes get a lot of flak from conservative players who don't want to hear about any changes that could affect their established character or playing style. Thanks all, and sorry if I didn't respond to your PM individually.

Now straight to the topic here, inspired by recent suggestions about a new newbie island/area, I would like us to think more broadly about Cantr's promise and its reality. It's normal for promises and realities to be a bit different, but let's all pretend for a sec that we're new players, and we just read the main page where the blurb told us:

"... you can try to play the worlds most famous politician, most feared criminal, most cunning military commander, most wealthy entrepreneur, or most beloved village idiot. Any role you can imagine you can play in this game and the challenge is in playing it consistently, and in achieving the goals you set for your characters individually."

Very exciting. Sign me up. OK, I am there - but what do I see, as of today's state of things?

That you can't do any of the things it said you could. You just can't. What you can expect to do is "get a job", extracting resources for one of those established characters, and then you can wait for a long real-life time "earning" yourself a shield, a sword, a car, a ship. That's if you're lucky. If not, there's utterly nothing to do at all. But surely, once you have the items, then the exciting gameplay will start (so you think). You will be able to DO things, then! Too bad, that, no, it won't and no, you won't. Like the older players you are working for, once you get there you will get even more bored once you're among the "have's" instead of the "have-nots". Don't get me wrong, this is not about bashing Cantr at all. We are just being realistic about what is possible for a player in this game under the current system.

I have a question for you, then. What should we be teaching to the newbies? Sounds simple right? Only it's not.

We could show them all about the "tech tree", what gets made with what and how long it all takes, to make them pull out their calculators and face the marvelous reality that they can expect to have that pimping sports-car they imagined riding - in about 2-3 real life years of playing, etc. So let's not focus there.

We could tell them everything about ticks, which are the parasites you get if you're in the right place at the right time, and how you can enjoy cantr-style encephalitis afterwards when your head swells up to enormous proportions, thanks to staying up all night babysitting those ticks. Oh, and once you get the encephaltis, you win. There are some who have even become chronic winners, maybe you, newbie, are next? On second thought, no, let's rather not go there either.

We can go on and on, but really is there any point? Every aspect of the mechanism, looked at separately is irrelevant and boring. In the back of your mind you know that's not what we should show or explain. We should instead show the newbies what makes the few successful players so addicted to their game: the act of inventing a character, and then playing out that imaginary role despite all the clumsy game mechanics and despite the boring surrounding characters. Playing it out honestly, until the end - happy or sad. Really, for such players, it wouldn't much matter if there was a global reset and all items and buildings and things got deleted. Naked and vulnerable, they'd still do the same thing they always did, carry on in their head and in the Cantr world the little imaginary story.

Cantr, when you really play it, is basically a love affair between two or more players (and it doesn't matter if the character's interactions have the exact opposite format). What I mean is that it's always a few nicely entangled stories that a few players have run together and made even more complex and fun in its greatness or its tragedy - by putting something of themselves into their characters. All the rest of it is just boring numbers in a database that truly mean nothing.

I didn't write all that to make players who enjoy "winning" (let's just call it that) feel bad about themselves in any way. You're playing the "town leaders", the people who everybody is "working for" to earn that ship or house, and your game is to gain "power", which you measure by resources, connections, people in your employ etc. You are the conservatives who have "investments" in your characters that have to be respected.The point of this long post is to see that thanks to you, Cantr has something like a "society", however fake it is, there we have it. Could it be better, more interesting, more complex? Sure. But you prefer it this way, because you think newbie players are your cheap expendable workforce, most of whom (you reason) will die from starvation or heart attacks (neglect) before turning 25 anyway. The reason they come into the world is to work for you for a short time, increase your resource pile a little, and then the player quits and is never heard of again. Let's be realistic, that's what happens to 80% or more of our new players!

But please, what's the point of learning about that tech and production tree etc. for the faltering Cantr newbie, who thanks to you will inevitably discover that there is nothing for him to do in this game. Being somebody's worker gets old fast, we all know it. And that's all you do as a newbie in Cantr at the moment. That's our deadly, newbie-killing problem, that we still haven't even faced properly, being (as older players) in total denial. Our heads might be full of foggy thoughts like "well I survived it in my day, so should they!" - but what for? So they can become "town leaders" in their turn or what?

The time for being happy conservatives is unfortunately long past. The English areas in the game are dying. A (pointlessly) complex game system and the draconian reality at most locations that as a newbie you !!!CAN'T DO ANYTHING!!! (come on, ProgD, alert!), have played an important role in this. The idea I want to leave with you from all this is that we should teach newbies how to have real fun in Cantr: by disregarding the clumsy mechanics and being imaginative. And that we should be carefully putting incremental changes into the game's mechanics that are effective at improving the situation, regardless of who's in-game toes it steps on.

tl;dr GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH!

Hm, I would have to say it all depends on WHERE you spawn - because most of my characters aren't "working for the leader" and most are leading rather interesting (to me) lives, full of fun and interaction with others and creating their own story. Isn't that the point?

Cogliostro wrote:And that we should be carefully putting incremental changes into the game's mechanics that are effective at improving the situation, regardless of who's in-game toes it steps on.

And what changes would those be?

Genevieve wrote:Hm, I would have to say it all depends on WHERE you spawn - because most of my characters aren't "working for the leader" and most are leading rather interesting (to me) lives, full of fun and interaction with others and creating their own story. Isn't that the point?

I quite agree.

Cogliostro wrote:"... you can try to play the worlds most famous politician, most feared criminal, most cunning military commander, most wealthy entrepreneur, or most beloved village idiot. Any role you can imagine you can play in this game and the challenge is in playing it consistently, and in achieving the goals you set for your characters individually."

Very exciting. Sign me up. OK, I am there - but what do I see, as of today's state of things?

That you can't do any of the things it said you could. You just can't. What you can expect to do is "get a job", extracting resources for one of those established characters, and then you can wait for a long real-life time "earning" yourself a shield, a sword, a car, a ship. That's if you're lucky. If not, there's utterly nothing to do at all. But surely, once you have the items, then the exciting gameplay will start (so you think). You will be able to DO things, then! Too bad, that, no, it won't and no, you won't. Like the older players you are working for, once you get there you will get even more bored once you're among the "have's" instead of the "have-nots".

Really? I've found that description on the main rings true for me. I've never had troubles making sure my characters (at least most) have interesting every day RP experiences, and in fact, find it utterly attainable to reach any set goal. Even when you don't reach it, the resulting RP is a laugh and a half. And it doesn't take as long as you seem to think to get things. Though, if we wanna agree it takes so long in game, guess what (mr. advocate-to-make-things-more-realistic-in-game) You think you could buy a car as a twenty something with no resources(money) in the real world and not expect to pay the maker for a year +? You're a bit contradictory from one post to the next. Also, let me remind you cantr is a slow-paced game. Reading that, no sane person would expect a car in one RL week, their first week of playing.

We could show them all about the "tech tree", what gets made with what and how long it all takes, to make them pull out their calculators and face the marvelous reality that they can expect to have that pimping sports-car they imagined riding - in about 2-3 real life years of playing, etc. So let's not focus there.

Invalid statistic.

We could tell them everything about ticks, which are the parasites you get if you're in the right place at the right time, and how you can enjoy cantr-style encephalitis afterwards when your head swells up to enormous proportions, thanks to staying up all night babysitting those ticks.

I think you'd be surprised how many RPers (see:not powergamers you refer to who rely on that) don't actually give a shit about ticks. But, I can see your point on that.

Every aspect of the mechanism, looked at separately is irrelevant and boring.

Sure but it's a game about RP, not mechanisms.

despite all the clumsy game mechanics and despite the boring surrounding characters.

I think you refer to the players who insist everything revolves around mechanics? (at least I hope so or else you're wrong) Because I can agree with that. SO the system lets me hit once a day, I can still RP tackling you or slapping you, tyvm.

We should instead show the newbies what makes the few successful players so addicted to their game: the act of inventing a character, and then playing out that imaginary role...

..Cantr, when you really play it, is basically a love affair between two or more players (and it doesn't matter if the character's interactions have the exact opposite format). What I mean is that it's always a few nicely entangled stories that a few players have run together and made even more complex and fun in its greatness or its tragedy - by putting something of themselves into their characters. All the rest of it is just boring numbers in a database that truly mean nothing.

I agree. For once.

The reason they come into the world is to work for you for a short time, increase your resource pile a little, and then the player quits and is never heard of again. Let's be realistic, that's what happens to 80% or more of our new players!
..The English areas in the game are dying...

its like rigel kent all over again. COLIG I MIGHT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY IF YOU DIDN'T MAKE UP STATISTICS AND SAY THINGS LIKE THE GAME IS DYING WHEN IT ISN'T. Fyi.

But please, what's the point of learning about that tech and production tree etc. for the faltering Cantr newbie, who thanks to you will inevitably discover that there is nothing for him to do in this game. Being somebody's worker gets old fast, we all know it. And that's all you do as a newbie in Cantr at the moment. That's our deadly, newbie-killing problem, that we still haven't even faced properly, being (as older players) in total denial. Our heads might be full of foggy thoughts like "well I survived it in my day, so should they!" - but what for? So they can become "town leaders" in their turn or what?

You have to remember, there is something to do. RP. But the rest of what you say touches on a point I hate. That older players sometimes see a spawn, put them to work, then never talk to them again. Thankfully there are still some saving face out there by not putting newbies to work right away, instead, having them try some things on their own, and watching them actively, telling old stories about things they're doing. Not many, but enough to give me hope.

The idea I want to leave with you from all this is that we should teach newbies how to have real fun in Cantr: by disregarding the clumsy mechanics and being imaginative. And that we should be carefully putting incremental changes into the game's mechanics that are effective at improving the situation, regardless of who's in-game toes it steps on.

Disregard you say? Okay. Now wait what? You want me to start making them better, even though I just disregarded them? Oh! The horror!


I'm just messin with you, and I understand what you're trying to say, but what I'm pulling from this is more of a tutorial of what the experienced players should be doing, not so much about game mechanics(this is an RP focused game, you know). I think if there is any problem new players face, it's being ignored by oldbies. Maybe all of us with charri's older than 50 can consciously try to fix this if we're not already.

I think the last 2-3 lines are the ones I agree with. Everything else sounds just a tad bitter.

I really think there needs to be a better way of welcoming new players. The best newbie guides I've seen are difficult to find and still don't do the job that's needed to be done. This goes along with how niche cantr is as a game. RP is king, and some newer players (some of my friends, for example) get a little stuck in the numbers and action, as in a game like Urban Dead.

From a strictly numbers game, cantr has little. You get your food to live, you get your tools to get your food and your tools to not die while getting your food and tools to get to other food faster. From there, if a part of you isn't going into your character, that's all you've got.

People who don't understand that their character should be more than a name, equipment, and raw materials find it lacking and quit. Getting new cantr players to play the 'real' game is like getting guys my age around the DnD table, roleplaying just isn't something most of them get. And older players watching newer ones hit their head against a wall with seemingly nothing to do about it, makes one stop caring about them unless they make a shining RP entrance.

So I think there is a problem, I think it's Cantr's biggest problem, I just don't think it's overwhelming and killing off the game we love.

I'll admit I nearly quit years ago, as I couldn't figure out what to do, and none of the chars around mine would help. But as for solutions... well there was the Wiki to stop newbies from pestering the grumpy oldies about the same thing over and over again.
The newbie island discussed elsewhere seems a good idea, true, but I can't think what else there is to that can be done.
The OP seems convinced that his ideas are the right ones and resents any criticism, but not all new ideas are rejected by any means. Careful consideration has to be given to ununexpected consequences, (eg the way smokers killed off all other cooking methods until a large subsequent change had to be made.) The game is not fixed by any means, it has changed considerably since I started. I admit that most changes make things more complicated, so you will always have the conflict between those newcomers wanting a simple start and the bored oldies who want something new.
For me, at least, starting in a mosttly undeveloped land was much of the attraction and this opportunity is not so often possible these days, but there are plenty of undeveloped spots. I seem to remember a suggestion that you should be able to select one of these as a spawn ground, but was probably rejected.
Cantr is a unique game, and it certainly doesn't appeal to everyone, but if you're going to completely redesign it - even in increments - you've got to be sure that it isn't going to alienate more people than it attracts.

Cogliostro

From a lot of your posts and topics I get the feeling that you are;

- Bitter
- Misinformed
- Bad at maths
- Impatient


I might be wrong, of course, but this is what I feel as I read your posts.
Besides this, I am not fully in the mood of giving a longer reaction, as I am very busy roleplaying in Cantr, with only one character actually working on a project! Wow! And I'm even having fun like that!


Highest Regards,

Caesar

Maybe Cantr is more realistic than the average gamer wants it to be. I mean like these gamese where *everyone* is famouos, a king, a super hero etc. (wow and such). Isn't that boring? Who doesn't in RL work for some "leader", almost at most half into your life span you can get a sports car. But if your goal of life is getting a sports car you IMHO fail already there.

Though I don't agree fully with the OP I do think the blurb is misleading. It makes Cantr sound like just another game (and thanks to insipered games it is, but lets not dwell on that here)

I have been on many a game where RP takes place in one chat room and members play for the chatroom rather than the actual game. For Cantr, the game is that chatroom and the blurb would reflect that. Becoming a politician or pirate or village idiot is part of that but comes later.

Dingoes, if it was just a misleading blurb, that wouldn't really be such a burning problem. So it's a bit misleading, so what. What advertising blurbs aren't, right? But the bigger problem is that Cantr (as is) fails to support the possibilities that exist in its own vision of itself. It doesn't any more do what it set out to do, in other words. In big part due to how the mechanics work, it's gotten to a point where nothing is really new any more, nothing unexpected has the potential of happening. This has to do with the combat system. It has to do with how real, functional enterprises and shops are impossible to create for players (because there is no automation of buying/selling available, not even primitive kinds). It has to do with how clothing and luxury items have no in-game effect on anything, and are treated by players as useless decor. Age having no effect on anything. That there are really in this "unlimited world" only two-three roles dictated by the current game mechanics into which you get to slot yourself, and there's nothing you can do to create anything different (except if you are an excellent roleplayer, and you are disregarding the mechanics like we talked about before).

It's a challenge because there aren't a lot of programming resources available to correct things, but I'm an optimist. I think a few small changes in just the right places can have dramatic effects in altering the game for the better.

We're never going to get that, though, if we keep on thinking in the old ways of "being conservative", and trying to change as little as possible in the power distribution in the game, or the potentials of each kind of character and playing style. Trying to do that without acknowledging that changes "that change everything" are really needed at this point - is sorta like driving with the handbrake on.

Who's going to come up with brilliant easy-to-implement ideas if each time they do, we meet them with pointless comments like "it will ruin the game" or "you do that and I quit"? One of the things I wanted to address in this giant but hopefully not too boring post was that people really need to understand that changes are necessary, or else the thing will gradually die off. Realizing that, people might decide to stop digging in their heels into the sand so much.

Another thing I wanted to bring up is learning from the Polish. What exactly are the Polish players doing that lets their cities and their newbie players to thrive and grow, compared to the English where we have desolation and total boredom? I'm really curious what some of the bilingual Polish/English guys might have to say to us on that.

Cogliostro wrote:Another thing I wanted to bring up is learning from the Polish. What exactly are the Polish players doing that lets their cities and their newbie players to thrive and grow, compared to the English where we have desolation and total boredom? I'm really curious what some of the bilingual Polish/English guys might have to say to us on that.

The point is not a singly of my characters has ever bored me.
If the area seemed boring I'd make my characters put some action into it. Just fire the engines and the rest will join.

Cantr never bored me. Not with even a single character.

We are all very happy for you, Caesar.

Cogliostro wrote:We are all very happy for you, Caesar.

Thank you, thank you.

The point is that you make it sound like Cantr is a dead wasteland where nobody really plays, and new arrivals are being spit at, or killed by the powergamers which seem to be everywhere.

It isn't really like that. And if it is, I must be a very lucky person that every place my chars went to was a place something could happen.
The only thing you'd need was to make something happen. You can't always rely on the others to rout the boredom off of the battlefield.

Cogliostro wrote:Another thing I wanted to bring up is learning from the Polish. What exactly are the Polish players doing that lets their cities and their newbie players to thrive and grow, compared to the English where we have desolation and total boredom? I'm really curious what some of the bilingual Polish/English guys might have to say to us on that.

I've been operating under the assumption that there is much less competition for Polish language games of this genre. Its Polish success is a consequence of less competition coupled with superior promotion on the part of it's players in a smaller, tighter-knit online gaming community.

Cantr gets lost in the crowd in the English gaming world, I think, and there's so much volume out there, there's very little sense of how to successfully make Cantr rise to the surface and get noticed without spending money.

But I'm curious, as you are, for the actual facts.