Cantr II Discussion Forum

Greetings all!

Life in cantr would be much easier and more realistic, and also more focused on RPing with some form of currency, be it a valuable commodity, like steel, coins or bronze/gold/silver.

Life with some kind of functioning economy would make cantre make more sense (come on, cars with no centralisation? metals with no communal effort? its makes no sense)

I think it would make the game much more fun...

The question is, whats missing, that proper economies dont develop? I mean even tribal commuties traded in their valuable resource (for example cows).

Indirect trade is weird, and unnatural, so whats missing or isnt properly represented that unlike the real world, economies dont just happen naturally?

I get the feeling you have no idea how difficult it is to develop and keep a stable economy - virtually or otherwise. I mean come on, even the US can't..

As i said, even tribal societies had indirect trade through their most valuable commodity, say cows or gold. In cantr we have steel, but that isnt a currency.

Look at the real world, and show me a society that always trades directly like cantr. It doesnt happen, even in a small village.

Long before coins we had, hacksilver (precious metals), and animals being used as currency.

Coins would could be harder, except if you used actual valuable metals as the coins. Then its pure natural value, no conversion or tinkering nessasary.

Only artificial paper money with intrest and inflation is that complex, because its imaginary.

Seems like suggesting currency would occur to at least some of my characters (at least the more intelligent), and steel seems like the natural choice....Fiddling around with building everything from stratch and all the direct trading would surely make some bells ring. It did for me as a player. If things like this happen naturally in early societies, it must be common sense, it must be obvious.

Unless theres some mechanic or something that makes that not work?

Any ideas as to why we dont all trade in steel? Or some other precious commodity?

Drael wrote:In cantr we have steel, but that isnt a currency.

Isn't it?


Anyway, there's no way to force characters to Cantr to do things a certain way. If you want to change something, spawn a character and have them introduce your ideas.

There is currency in Cantr....(coins, as you say). Read up in the wiki perhaps?

As i said, even tribal societies had indirect trade through their most valuable commodity

Yeah, and that's what we do. Not every town has the same thing, which is why trade is necessary. What does it matter if you trade your potatoes for steel, which you don't particularly have need for (and will have to find someone else to pawn it off to) instead of trading your potatoes for something you actually want/need like say, wood.

Which is also my answer to this

Any ideas as to why we dont all trade in steel? Or some other precious commodity?

Your statements come of as extremely contradictory(also, who are you to say whats a valuable commodity? I know some towns that would consider grapes more valuable than all else). Like I said, each town has different resources, and those are always going to be valuable to someone, somewhere close by.

Which is also why there isn't regular steel trading for resources. Not everyone is capable of possessing steel, and honestly, if you can trade resource for resource, what's wrong with that?


EDIT: Also, "old days" you think the standard for buying a loaf of bread was always a chicken? Nu-uh, it worked just how cantr does. You brought what you had to offer (fruit, cow, chicken, veggies) in the hope the bread man would need whatever you had, and would trade you for it. This is identical to cantr, albeit the fact we cannot trade chickens, is it not?

Isn't it?

Well not for any trades or exchanges ive witnessed. Say you want a car, and you have a boat. You have to find someone who wants a boat and has a car. Now if we used steel, you could sell your boat for steel, use that steel to buy a car. Thats indirect trading. You could do work, in exchange for steel, and use that steel to buy food or tools. Etc. Simple and to me, obvious.

Anyway, there's no way to force characters to Cantr to do things a certain way. If you want to change something, spawn a character and have them introduce your ideas.

Well, having spent days making primitive tools from bone, and having to depend on charity initially for food, watching traders come through with wares, but they cant arrange a trade, im sure some of my existing characters are already starting to think of this. (The more intelligent ones, or materially oriented). This final dot that steel is the most valuable is also obvious from the presence and importance of mechanics like cars, and that its rare and hard to make.

One of my characters just saw two traders come into town and nothing was exchanged. Its weird.

It sure this character will suggest this, because hes had the impetus. With the others, its hard to seperate common sense from what is obvious to the characters. In some cases, some of my characters wouldnt care.

Well not for any trades or exchanges ive witnessed. Say you want a car, and you have a boat. You have to find someone who wants a boat and has a car. Now if we used steel, you could sell your boat for steel, use that steel to buy a car. Thats indirect trading. You could do work, in exchange for steel, and use that steel to buy food or tools. Etc. Simple and to me, obvious.

Already done, but with whatever resource is around. Boat for stone, stone for car. Hell, even through in a few other random trade offs of resources in there..

Steel and iron are quite widely used in more developed areas as a standard salary for workers, however as Rebma said, not all areas have the same standards. Onions might be more commonly traded, or haematite, or wood. One of my characters lives in a forest where people can be fined wood for breaking the law, and wood is used to buy many things.

There is currency in Cantr....(coins, as you say). Read up in the wiki perhaps?

Yes coins, but then someone has to make them, and then its more artificial than say just using a commodity, which happens naturally in the real world (animals etc for tribal societies, metals for mining societies etc)

Yeah, and that's what we do. Not every town has the same thing, which is why trade is necessary. What does it matter if you trade your potatoes for steel, which you don't particularly have need for (and will have to find someone else to pawn it off to) instead of trading your potatoes for something you actually want/need like say, wood.

Perhaps these vast differences in valuable commodity is what prevents indirect trading? I would have thought that steel had some value everywhere. Am i wrong?

As for the last statement, this is obvious. If steel is the agreed commodity for trade then one could trade it for anything. Far simpler than your potatoes for wood senario. (See above post about trading a car for a boat)

Thats called direct trading and it requires buyer to directly find seller (see my last post). Its complicated and messy. I saw two traders come through one of my characters towns. Nothing was traded despite interest in their goods.

Your statements come of as extremely contradictory(also, who are you to say whats a valuable commodity? I know some towns that would consider grapes more valuable than all else).

Like I said, each town has different resources, and those are always going to be valuable to someone, somewhere close by.

So we all have to travel to aquire value? Thats kinda weird.

Which is also why there isn't regular steel trading for resources. Not everyone is capable of possessing steel, and honestly, if you can trade resource for resource, what's wrong with that?

Okay, again, your not getting this. You dont have to make steel to trade with it. You sell your wood to the traders who come through town, for steel. Then you have steel, you use to buy grapes, or whatever you want.

All this takes about twenty steps out of every trade, and that, boys and girls, is why all real world societies develop currency naturally.

lol.

okay, so it does already happen in some regions. Sorry ive got about ten characters, and none have encountered this.

I must have some of my characters suggest this.....

I was seriously wondering why despite people having cars, and labour being valuable, i had to build bone knives etc. Its like man vs wild in the middle of a town!

Also BTW, are there really areas where steel isnt valuable at all? Seems like the best option.....especially being rarer, so you dont have to carry alot.

I mean trading with wood is uber cumbersome.

Yes coins, but then someone has to make them, and then its more artificial than say just using a commodity, which happens naturally in the real world (animals etc for tribal societies, metals for mining societies etc)

You're the one who wanted coins. Yes, natural commodity, see, whats in the town! Not steel, because its not naturally everywhere.

Perhaps these vast differences in valuable commodity is what prevents indirect trading? I would have thought that steel had some value everywhere. Am i wrong?

Yes.

As for the last statement, this is obvious. If steel is the agreed commodity for trade then one could trade it for anything. Far simpler than your potatoes for wood senario. (See above post about trading a car for a boat)

It won't ever be the agreed commodity because it is not easily accessible to everyone, and, as for making it simpler

Okay, again, your not getting this. You dont have to make steel to trade with it. You sell your wood to the traders who come through town, for steel. Then you have steel, you use to buy grapes, or whatever you want.

All this takes about twenty steps out of every trade, and that, boys and girls, is why all real world societies develop currency naturally.

Is it just me, because I see that you seemed to have added a step, not taken away twenty. Plus, add the fact someone has to get the steel going, OH LOOK MORE STEPS

And finally

So we all have to travel to aquire value? Thats kinda weird.

Like I said, to every town, something different is valuable..



Oh I almost forgot..

You dont have to make steel to trade with it

Well, somebody's gotta. Somebody's gotta make it, somebody's gotta travel to get it or trade it...etc.

Thought you might want to check this out:

http://wiki.cantr.net/index.php/Comparative_value_of_steel

You're the one who wanted coins. Yes, natural commodity, see, whats in the town! Not steel, because its not naturally everywhere.

I dont recall saying i wanted coins. See, for thousands of years people traded in precious metals, but not everyone had a personal mine. Someone else makes the steel, or whatever you want to use. Some locality is natural, if your low tech, you might not have huge use for steel. (When europe was trading with precious metals, africa was still trading animals)

It won't ever be the agreed commodity because it is not easily accessible to everyone, and, as for making it simpler

Again, doesnt need to be easily accessible to everyone. Do you own a money press in RL. You still use cash right? Where do you get cash....in exchange for goods or services.

Is it just me, because I see that you seemed to have added a step, not taken away twenty. Plus, add the fact someone has to get the steel going, OH LOOK MORE STEPS Very Happy

And there you are using money, in RL, is it more complex than trading a chicken for a banana?

lol.

Like I said, to every town, something different is valuable..

Well, so they could still use that thing locally for currency, in a more organised and agreed fashion. If it happens in tribal societies, why not small villages in cantr?

Well, somebody's gotta. Somebody's gotta make it, somebody's gotta travel to get it or trade it...etc.

Correct. That somebody would be a trader.

Im not into an argument really.

Im very pleased to here that commodity indirect trading occurs in places, because to me its very common sense, and some of my characters who are logically oriented will suggest this.

Thats an interesting post, that link. I realise labour times will be what people naturally want to trade value with, and ive seen them do this, but this doesnt take into account skill in making, accessability/commonness, desirability etc, like trading really should. (Labour is really more valuable to the player than it would be the character)

Still, might be easier to use a labour standard if people prefer that.

*sighs* I give up, you just don't get it.

Try playing cantr a little longer, maybe you'll start to understand what's being said to you, instead of insisting steel takes queen, no matter the hassle it takes to generate, and implement, not to mention when there are far more efficient systems in play.

Maybe you'll get a charri on K-isle one day, and stumble upon something us folks call currency. Or up near the Dourdens (sp?). Seriously, play a little more, hopefully you'll see these things.

Yes coins, but then someone has to make them, and then its more artificial than say just using a commodity

By the way, thats the same as what trying to get the steel thing going would do.


*sighs* I'm going to bed, because I can. And its nearly 8am.

EDIT: Labour standard for the already implemented win.