Cantr II Discussion Forum

With player numbers declining, is it time for Cantr to be redesigned? If so, what kind of improvements would you like to see?

To get things going, how about a proper combat system?
Why not make Cantr free-roaming rather than node-based (ie: towns)?
Maybe the number of items (tools, clothes, animals, etc) should be reduced?
Maybe we should have button-based actions?


This isn't a suggestions thread. If you want to actually suggest something, go ahead and do so in the Suggestions forum. If you mention the suggestion here too, why not link to it?

I think Cantr can be a lot better than it is now. We just need the desire and ability to do so.

Well, maybe you're right, that Cantr needs changes - I'm even sure you are! - BUT I think rather about evolution than revolution.

There it goes:

Proper combat system - it could be good thing, only if it wouldn't be too complicated. Cantr was always RP-based game, so putting too inticate and too demanding combat system in it, will destroy its assumptions, in my opinion. Present system isn't good, I'm admitting it. But I think this issue is very sensitive - players are sort of used to it, and anything shouldn't be done without debate.

Free-roaming - I cannot imagine. Could you be more specific?

Number of animals - IMHO should be reduced, cause in fact they do not giving ANYthing new and cool into the game.
Tools - leave as it is. Whole resources proccesing system in Cantr is in my opinion pretty good and needs only some slight changes - if any at all.
Clothes - increase! Definetely increase! There're so many kind of clothes I would be glad to see in Cantr that you can't even imagine.

Button-based actions - again, what do you mean?

Nothing is perfect. Neither Cantr is. So of course it can be better. But - I will repeat - in my opinion changes should be based on evolution, not revolution. If changes like you have mentioned would be implement, I think lot of (lot of!) players would just leave.
There're many minor changes, which implementation would have positive influence on the game. I.e. disassembly the vehicles, possibility to transport vehicles on ships (REAL ferries, not the kind we have now), colours of clothes, MORE clothes, possibility to engrave upon weapons, towers (sorta vantage points), thirst, maybe more kind of vehicles, some improvements of coin press and seals...
Those are examples of changes that should be - IMHO - implement. Because they'll put more variety to the game, because they'll create more possibilities, and because they're suggested by players themselves.

PS
Sorry, if my English isn't too easy to understand, but it hasn't been used much lately.

Are we talking about Cantr III now? The improvements you mentioned would most likely make a whole reprogramming of the game necessary, don't you think?

I don't agree with thirst. We have many people die already, adding a new way for people to die. The rest of the ideas, I liked it sounds like it would be pretty cool.

Currently Programming Dept. is dramatically understaffed and it is barely able to maintain current system.

The English Zone is declining much more than other languages, so perhaps it's not so much a problem with mechanics...

Add proper id's and classes to the page elements.

The HTML 1.0-age almost-CSS-less coding style of Cantr is annoying when I try to mod it client-side with the Stylish plugin for Firefox.

Arlequin, you are welcome to do that - you can be delivered with HTML sources if you wish to participate.

To clarify a few things:

Free-roaming. I read somewhere that any future improvements to Cantr would include a more 'open' world, where characters could travel anywhere. Imagine the way boats are piloted (any direction, any speed, etc) and transfer that ability to characters walking or driving on land. In contrast, the current system is 'node-based', which means that characters leaving a town can only travel on a set, straight path to a choice of nearby towns. They can't leave the path and go exploring, for example. In a 'free-roaming' system, they could.
I don't know exactly how a free-roaming system might work, but it would probably be grid-based. Each square (pixel) would have a small amount of data describing things like 'land type', number and types of animals, perhaps weather, etc, and the location data of characters would be in the form of co-ordinates. Characters would probably be able to build roads - anywhere - and automatically follow them if they choose to, similar to how roads are followed now. Benefits would be the ability to build anything from a solitary hut to a city anywhere on land. It could probably also lead to realistic farming and hunting, and might even make 'field combat' possible!

Button-based actions. Yeah, that was kinda vague, wasn't it...? What I meant by that was that we could have various buttons like [Wave], [Frown], [Smile], etc, which, when clicked, would generate that event, automatically translated for all languages. For example, we currently have a [Hit] button, which generates the event "You hit Joe" (and Joe sees "Dave hits you", and others see "Dave hits Joe", etc), and all of this is automatically translated so that, if Joe is Dutch, for example, he sees the event in his own language. The advantage of this idea is that everyone would be able to understand the emotes and actions of everyone else without having to either manually translate them or just use English and hope they understand. The downside is that, at least to begin with, the number of available actions would be quite low, but new actions could be suggested, included and translated all the time.

By the way, I'm all for things like more clothing and tools that improve the game and make it more immersive, etc, but it seems to me that too many of these things could be overwhelming, especially if they have no real impact (for example, clothing is totally cosmetic right now).

Piscator, I'm not talking about Cantr III specifically, but yes, I think a reprogramming of the game from the ground up might be a good thing. Marol, I hear what you're saying, but couldn't a redesign make maintenance easier? Plus, if the game's better then more programmers might be attracted to work on it.

As I said, these aren't strictly suggestions, more a general wondering-ment and discussion.

Check out the Cantr Roadmap thread stickied somewhere up above.

UloDeTero wrote:To get things going, how about a proper combat system?

I'm not quite happy with the current combat system, but I haven't heard any suggestions for a better one.

Why not make Cantr free-roaming rather than node-based (ie: towns)?

Sounds like a logistical nightmare, for players as well as programmers. Keep land travel simple.

Maybe the number of items (tools, clothes, animals, etc) should be reduced?

I wouldn't see any benefit. I've heard that items can be added relatively easily, and variety keeps life interesting.

Maybe we should have button-based actions?

Yes, definitely. There must be a thread already. Seems easy enough to program. Just take the table on the international emotes page of the wiki. Put those emotes into a pull-down menu.

To get things going, how about a proper combat system?

It would help. With what was said in the world takeover thread, that's really depressing when you stop to think about it. Either you have a darter or a dinghy and cannot be docked but cannot get a cabin on it and thus there's no way save for killing and threatening to restrain prisoners OR you make a big ship and risk being docked to. So kidnapping is practically a suicide unless there were no witnesses.

Why not make Cantr free-roaming rather than node-based (ie: towns)?

Because free roaming would further dilute the population and make it harder to find people.

Maybe the number of items (tools, clothes, animals, etc) should be reduced?

I don't see why the number should be reduced. Having an advanced listing for clothing akin to the manufacturing menu would help. Also stacking similar objects would be useful. With javascript you could do "5 hammers [expand]" and when you click expand, it would show them individually with deterioration state. In fact, if it was php and the query to get the deterioration states would only be run after you expand it, this would reduce the amount of queries and thus speed up the game.

Maybe we should have button-based actions?

Well, there certainly shouldn't be a separate button for each since that would be just insane. Instead there could be a drop down menu and a button that says "Act" or something.

In general the huge number of buttons should be reduced. It just isn't functional. I understand the benefit of having repeated buttons for pick-up and drop (although there could be a multiple selection option, maybe not on the ground but in your invenotry) but things like use on a project, repair and edit note can only be done on one object at a time, so why do we have a button for each? Why not a radio button and a set of action buttons at the top of the list? There has been an argument that having to scroll all the way up or down would be time-consuming or distracting but you could repeat controls every 10 or 5 rows if needed - there would still be less buttons in any case.

I could think of a thousand things that would improve Cantr. But since programming capacity is VERY limited, it seems, it is useless listing even the top 10 here.

The main features of Cantr for me are the HUGE and complex production tree, and the almost complete social (RP-)freedom in the game (i.e. no prescribed social relations and positions). They make this game unique. So, please do NOT reduce the number of items.

Unfortunately some of the key mechanisms in the game are rather poorly designed, to the point where they disturb the illusion of playing in a virtual world. If you want to make the game more attractive some of those should be altered. The combat system, the hunting system and domesticating animals are some of them.

In order to attract a lot of people (which this game needs) Cantr should be easier to startup for new players. If a new player has no clue as to what he can do within the game he will probably move on to the next game, leaving yet another dead body. Cantr should be understandable and interesting for new players from minute 1. New players should be given some basic knowledge about how life is in Cantr, not just a synposis of the interface mechanics. New characters are adults, not babies. They KNOW what life in Cantr is about.

What Cantr misses, in my opinion, is the sense of goals in the game, the feel of progress. Though characters DO experience progress by performing activities, this progress is virtually invisible to the players. The only visible progress is the accumulation of posessions a character carries/controls.
By introducing fields (and 'levels') of knowledge into the game this feel of improvement can be enhanced. Characters would not be able to perform all activities from the start, but will have to learn about (some of) them first, through study, teaching and/or inventing(!). An expanding list of proficiencies would add to the feel of progress.
Another way of showing progress is showing a dynamic 'picture' of a character in the character section. This can be realised by layering transparent pictures of each item. It would show gender, age, visible posessions and most of all: current clothing. Any time the character status info is shown the picture can be generated, based upon the current data. Making clothes more visible would make wearing clothes more of an implicit status element. Something to pursue.

marol wrote:Arlequin, you are welcome to do that - you can be delivered with HTML sources if you wish to participate.

I would be very happy to work on the design just for the credit, but I don't think I can really devote time to that now.

I know CSS/XTHML, maybe I could do it.