repair and deterioration

[wietse]

Well, I can understand its a bit weird that when you put a object into a project, deterioration is different from when its on the ground.

Only i don't like it if there is no way to stop deterioration at all. Couldnt there be another way to store objects? To me they should only deteriorate when used or lying outdoors . Not when you store them in a cabinet or leave them in a building.

Also i dont want to spend my game time repairing things, but i want to build new and more things. Hoarding stuff is part of what makes the game fun, not maintaining them....

[KAM42]

I was thinking along these lines too actually. I have at least two characters who would not be able to do much at all because they are lone travellers with a ton of gear - I don't want to have to stay in one place constantly repairing the things that I'll never get the chance to use - because I'm too busy repairing other things that were about to crumble away. This would make logging in to these two characters basically pointless (and they are favourites!). Is anything being planned to counteract deterioration? If not I suspect that this change will be getting a lot of flame.

[Jos Elkink]

The whole reason for implementing deterioration was that too many people rely on just being patient and then they can make anything for themselves. Building a car can be done entirely on your own, as long as you have the patience of years. But the whole point of Cantr is that it is about cooperation and coordination. If you have too many goods that need to be repaired, you'll have to find staff to do so, or get slaves, or ...

If a lonely traveller cannot maintain a huge assortment of goods, then that's exactly the point of implementing deterioration!

Cantr is all about coordination, cooperation, conflict - if anyone can build anything on their own given enough time, none of these three is required for anything.

[Sicofonte]

There is people that like to cooperate, maybe 'cause they like to be chating whilst working, or mainly 'cause they want to finish SOON (this is my reason for trying to create a religion, a comercial company, a government in a town...).

Althoug decay could force the people to seek for assistance, we don't need decay to have cooperation... yeah, I'm sure.

[KAM42]

That's just it, it's not a huge assortment, just required tools. Whilst you raise a good point, removing ways to avoid deterioration also removes an RP possibility of Cantr - the thief. How can one be expected to make off with a bunch of tools and remain self-sufficient if it is no longer mechanically possible to do so? Sure you mention taking on staff and co-operating - but who wants to be friends with Joe McThief? I'm sure a lot of people enjoy this aspect of Cantr and will no longer be able to if there is not some way to slow deterioration.

And yes, this will lead to increased conflict IG, but it will also lead to OOC conflict - a line between realism and playability. Now I know this a dead horse argument and Cantr is meant to have strong elements of realism - being a society simulator and all. Nonetheless, it simply isn't a realistic expectation that people will either have to co-operate or leave the game. Plenty of people in real life do things on their own, both out of preference and because it is possible (e.g self employed?). Saying that travelling from one end of an island to another carrying a shovel, pickaxe, a pair of bellows, a weapon, protection, and basic gathering tools without stopping every three towns to make repairs will no longer be possible unless there are elements of co-operation, co-ordination and conflict will inevitably take a lot away from Cantr.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying deterioration should be ceased, just that it I think it needs to be re-addressed -before- the repair 'bug' is ironed out. One of my characters recently went to repair a bone shield that would have taken him 20 hours (more in fact, he was awkward with weapons) - that's two and a half times longer than it would have taken to make a brand new one from scratch!

[kinvoya]

I hate to say it but I think this will be the death blow to the game.

[wichita]

I hate to say it, but you are wrong, kinvoya.

Having said that:

Adjusting rates in my number one RD priority at the moment. Hopefully we will get them updated ASAP.

[kinvoya]

That will make a big difference, then, wichita. I hope.

[Pieter de Groote]

Jos, you're absolutely right: more cooperation would be good for the game.
But, I'm (more than) afraid that this proposal is not the way.

My prediction is that this either results in "Cantr, the nr. one repair game" or
"that very nice game of lovely cooperation, enjoyed immensely by all 12 players".

I know I don't want more dull work for my characters. It will be considered "uitzichtloos en ondraaglijk lijden" for most of them.

[Jos Elkink]

I agree that playing repairs all the time is about the least fun thing in Cantr to do. I myself wasn't too happy when repair was introduced, from a player's point of view - and yes, I did agree to it in advance and still do ... I hope better repair rates will fix it.

But to have repair projects being a storage is a ridiculous situation and makes the whole deterioration rather pointless.

Still, there is the problem of too many things being possible without any cooperation, which really kind of spoils the game. Governments only exist because some people like governments - there seem to be very little actual conflicts / resource limits / etc that create such organisation.

I think it's reasonable for a game like Cantr that staying wealthy requires help. Isn't it? But it's always a difficult balance to strike when you want to make the game hard enough to create a challenge, and easy enough to keep it enjoyable to play. And yes, we might have lost that balance a bit in recent times.

[Oasis]

So, do I understand you correctly that when object deterioration in repair mode is turned on, there will be no alternate way of preserving/slowing down deterioration implemented? I thought that was going to go hand in hand.

I pity the poor business owner who has to travel, to come home to a business full of.........disintegrated tools. Especially the poor tool salesman.

I realize that speed of deterioration is going to be adjusted before this happens, but I still think some method of preservation should be introduced. I have had charries be away for years, whether on lengthy resource trips, or off fighting wars.........and they have, of course, put their tools in "stasis" mode. It would be nice if they could wrap them in oil cloth while they're gone, to slow the deterioration. (And yes, they have employees, but they've all gone off together - who wants to be left behind, just to repair the tools? If it were me, I'd steal them all instead! )

[Jos Elkink]

Shouldn't that business owner hire someone for repair before going to travel?

[Oasis]

They have, but what about that which will deteriorate while they're gone?

[kinvoya]

Shouldn't that business owner hire someone for repair before going to travel?

There is not enough trust of fellow chars for this to work in Cantr, IMO. The bussinessman is just as likely to come home to find all his tools missing or to learn that his assistant died soon after he left and all of his tools are in drastic disrepair...so he probably won't want to go anywhere.

Cantr is not like rl. You can't force cooperation on Cantr chars because they don't behave the same way as rl people do and there is very little enforcement to get them to behave themselves. Even if a char really, really trusts someone, that char could die because the player has to leave the game. Partners and employees rarely die or go into extended comas in real life but it happens all the time in Cantr.

I don't want to sound so negative but this seems like the reality to me. I also know I can't change anything but I'm putting in my two coins of opinion anyway

Can I suggest that the adjustments to deterioration be made into an announcement so that players have a little good news to go with the scary news?

[Phalynx]

This is the wrong place for this thread..

You are missing the point guys.. There is no point in Joe McTheif stealing all the tools because he won't be able to keep them for himself for long and we all know there is no benefit in trying to sell stolen goods in the next town.

Sure it will be difficult to start with, there will be an adjustment period when it's a little confusing, some tools will be lost, some people might try their hand at thievery.

Effectively the characters at the top of the tree will have to work to keep their employees happy because they start to depend on them. Some change is painful but worth it. And in my experience saying some change will be the 'death of cantr' doesn't seem to influence anyone, and on past expereince end up being true!

Partners and employees rarely die or go into extended comas in real life but it happens all the time in Cantr.

Your expereince of life is very different from mine. At my work we don't go a week without someone off sick and there have been plenty of deaths too.
Go and try some parts of the undeveloped world, maybe think outside the box a little before you make daft assertions.