new health system ect...

[Revanael]

Lonestar, you've a lot to learn about tolerance, and about sense, and about the creator of the game you play. I hope for your sake that was not meant as an insult.

[ephiroll]

Cantr is a hair from being nothing more then a text version of the Sims, and if I wanted to play the Sims in any way, shape, form, or fashion then that game wouldn't have been sitting on my shelf gathering dust since two weeks after I bought it.

I personally find the Sims horribly boring, so I don't like this accusation ... Yes, the bars are inspired by those in the Sims, I can't deny that. But that is really just about looks. At least half of the bars in the Sims are about how the character feels, about 'happiness' and 'comfort', etc. That is a huge, huge difference from Cantr, where you can still entirely set your own goals and interests for your character. Related to that, but at least as important, is the fact that characters in Sims are AI characters, not played by you. That is what makes that game so boring (and impressive from a developers perspective). Cantr is not in any way getting closer to that. So except that the bars look like those in the Sims and split stats up like they do, the game is not in any way anywhere near the Sims, let alone being a 'hair away'.

I'm not talking about the bars, I like the way that's done, what I'm talking about is that char interactions are now limited to talking (I'm also refering more to the online version of Sims as opposed to single player) and then sitting back and seeing what comes of that, there is very little that can be physically done to change the situation.

I don't think it's like the Sims because of the meters, it's getting to be like the Sims in the fact that about all you can do now is run around and be sociable. That isn't society. Society is much more dynamic.

I'm afraid you really have to explain this one to me. How does this change make the chars more sociable? How does it make Cantr society less dynamic? I really don't see this ...

I definitely like Cantr for its politics, economics, and military aspects - the social aspects are important to some, but only minorly so to me. So I do not think that you and I are seeking a different kind of game, hence I'm rather surprised by this comments. Please explain.

Buy dynamic I mean that in RL anything can happen, like above I'm talking about how limited interactions will now be, basically, the only way to deal with anything now is to talk. That isn't how society is, in RL the ways to deal with a situation are limited only by what a person is willing to do, their access to the things to do it with, and their ablility to carry through. What happened yesterday in KF is a perfect example of how limited things are now, the way that went down wasn't realistic at all because before things even really got started everyone was too tired to continue.

I'm NOT cool with is that attacking animals and people cause different amounts of tiredness and it seems that the tiredness caused from attacking another char doesn't decrease in the same way as that caused from hunting.

This is true and indeed a bit odd, but I'm afraid it's necessary from a game balance point of view. Making it tiring to attack people is to create the effect described above, but if I would do the same for attacking animals, Cantr characters will never be able to deal with the already rather harsh animal environment in the game.

My point is that it doesn't take more energy to shoot at a person then what it does to shoot at a person, actually, if anything the oposite should be true because when you hunt it's normally while you're crawling through the bushes or sitting in a tree which takes much more energy then simply taking a pop at someone in front of you. Even if for game balance it's totally unrealistic to only be able to attack X (I know how many won't say because there's too many people it would be news to) chars before being to tired to do anything else. Anyone that weak shouldn't even have a weapon, they're more of a danger to themselves then anyone else. As it is now it would take an entire town just to deal with one violent criminal.

[joshua johnson]

Bummer....
All my hopes and dreams of oneday spawning (or having a characher turn into) a "town killer" character are gone.

As usual, Jos is pretty smart.

He says they are working on item deterioration, and I am still betting that natural disasters are somewhere in the pipleline....

This game is getting harder, but better.

It was kind of ridiculous now that I think about it... to know exactly how much a character could produce every hour. We were all just so used to it, that we thought it was our right to know exactly how fast someone is working. Jos is rught that we don't need game mechanics to have fun... knowing game mechanics simply make us more accurate at playing the game, but don't make the game more fun.

[myst]

I'm all for the change. The specifics do seem rather odd, especially how hard it is to kill someone now. But in general I think the changes are very important in introducing "society simulation". Professional soldiers who sit around all day are now better than the peasant in a field armed with a sword and shield; the upper class have motivation to make others do their work, houses and belongings become worthwhile, etc... A big improvement.

The only real problem is that the micromanagement is increasing. Working on a big project, you have to keep stopping etc which require MORE logins at silly times of the day. I think you should be able to set your characters to only work until they are "tired" (oh, 50% or whatever) automatically, as part of the production process (or not if you are in a hurry for something)

[ephiroll]

But when soldiers aren't fighting they don't just sit around, that just means they have to do other things.

[Jos Elkink]

I'm not talking about the bars, I like the way that's done, what I'm talking about is that char interactions are now limited to talking (I'm also refering more to the online version of Sims as opposed to single player) and then sitting back and seeing what comes of that, there is very little that can be physically done to change the situation.

I still don't fully understand why you say this, and I honestly do want to get your point. Are you purely referring to the fact that after fighting, you have little energy to do much else? We are only talking about a limited time, though, as energy automatically increases again over time. Perhaps that should be more fine-grained, actually, so you can see the effect more often. And once we have additional tricks to rest, it's even better.

But what I fail to see is how this reduces the game to talking alone. Really no action previously possible is not possible after these changes. Except perhaps more specialisation, but to be honest, I have never much liked all those chars doing everything at the same time, and at least try to play my chars always as specialist. Anyone ever seen Russell actually working? ... And I do that on purpose, because in my opinion it makes the game more interesting. This change stimulates that kind of specialisation (which is actually a side effect I hadn't thought of when implementing it, but now it's there, I kind of like it).

[SekoETC]

I suppose they have a situation where there was a big war but suddenly everybody got too tired to attack after only a few strikes. Now people just leaning against each other weakly trying to get a punch through without falling over.

[ephiroll]

I'm not talking about the bars, I like the way that's done, what I'm talking about is that char interactions are now limited to talking (I'm also refering more to the online version of Sims as opposed to single player) and then sitting back and seeing what comes of that, there is very little that can be physically done to change the situation.

Are you purely referring to the fact that after fighting, you have little energy to do much else?

Yes, basically that's what I'm talking about comes down to.

For example: Say one full strenght char attacks a group of three at some place but doesn't do any damage. Those three retaliate by attacking and trying to end the hostilites at that moment, but don't, say they also don't do any significant damage. At that point they realize it would be best to lock the hostile up, but they can't, becuase they've already tired themselves and now it would take 4 or more to drag him away. At that point they can do nothing but either talk to him, which wouldn't turn away and determined attacker and will probly just provoke insults, or they can sit and wait until they've rested enough to drag him away, which at the present rate that fatigue is imparted when another char is attacked, it would be hours before they would be able to do that. In the meantime, there is nothing they can do to affect the situation and the hostile will most likly get away despite being out numbered.

[ephiroll]

I just thought of one solution to the above scenerio, do away with the one hit a day.

With the new system a char can only make X attacks per day anyway, so it's not like they can keep attacking everyone and if someone did that til exhaustion (say an assasin sent to take out a specific char) then they would be at the mercy of anyone else present, and, as in my above scenario, all defenders could concentrate their full force upon the enemy at the expense of leaving themselves vulnerable.

[Agar]

Sounds like there needs to be a change in tactics in how you deal with people doing things you don't want. Instead of the "police brutaility" mindset we had (pummle first, lock up if still alive), we now seem to be better served by the "bad cop" mindset (lock up first, then pummel to death in private)

Discovering this leads you to change in tactics, and resolving that is a social issue, not a gameplay issue.

Look in to oubliettes for well supplied criminals.

[AoM]

Mmm... interesting proposal here, and I have to say i kind of agree with it. If we're going to get incredibly tired and limited in strength as quickly as we are now, it might be best to at least let us continue to attack one target... be it a person or an animal.

~AoM

[ephiroll]

Sounds like there needs to be a change in tactics in how you deal with people doing things you don't want. Instead of the "police brutaility" mindset we had (pummle first, lock up if still alive), we now seem to be better served by the "bad cop" mindset (lock up first, then pummel to death in private)

That would only be a possible solution in the scenario I outlined, not a solution for every possible scenerio.

[Agar]

Now you're just being argumentative.

Yes, that solution only works for the situation you described. You'll have to find solutions for other scenarios in game.

(God, I hate it when people say that to me)

You now only have so much energy available, and you have to choose to use it wisely. I know I'd like to go back to the days when a madman could kill a village, but now it takes a village to stop a madman. (Oprah must be rolling over in her grave) I had a lil group getting ready to get gear and take out a few governments, but that's not going to happen now.

Now, you're in or your out. Clans and empires, where there's lots of people to act as a unit, they have the power now. Lone wolves, anti social misfits, they have seen their day. It's come and gone. Now is the age of incorparation, you will be assimilated.

[ephiroll]

I'm not being argumentative, I'm pointing out a basic fact. What if the guy in the above scenerio is on a vehicle? What if it's a hit and run? What if he's dragging himself into a building that he knows doesn't have a lock? Unless you're willing to let the hostile go in such a situation there is no choice but to take him down, there is no other solution.

And it shouldn't take a whole town to take out one maniac, that's just rediculous.

I also believe thinking that all the power is in large groups is being very narrow minded, unimaginative and focusing on brute force instead of tactics, I will prove this point sometime in the coming weeks

[griogal]

Or as stated in some episode of "Blackadder III":

"Nothing stops a homicidal maniac with a claymore"