Cantr Is Dying. What Then Shall We Do?

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Chris
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Postby Chris » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:33 am

Missy wrote:
That makes the rich richer, which is the problem we have already.


The rich have a problem lately too. The poor may have become incredibly poor, but the rich have become poor too in a sense. You don't make changes to the game to effect the economy of the rich or the poor either one. If you want to do something about the rich being rich and the poor being poor you have to figure out a solution for that with your characters. That's my beef with programming always trying to implement things that will "influence trade." Trade's there as is the possibility for trade, it just takes the right kind of character to set it up/the right kind of player behind the characters to make a character that will make it happen.

I wasn't talking about trade. I meant that big towns will get lots of newspawns, just as they do now. The small towns will get none. Those who have a lot (of newspawns) will get more, and those who have almost none will get fewer. "The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer" is an expression that can be used figuratively to talk about things other than wealth.
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Postby Missy » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:30 am

And I'm saying, "have you looked at the size of some of the "large" towns lately?"
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Postby Zanthos » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:30 am

Quillanoi hit a decade high with 12 people in the area, though 4 were membery of another community.
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Doug R.
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Postby Doug R. » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:29 pm

A temporary fix and a bitter pill would be to eliminate spawning on all but the core islands. This means all outposts on other islands would die off, but the pop density on the cores would increase. This is assuming, of course, that increasing population density would benefit the game somehow.

I have said and will continue to stick to saying that rot is meaningless no matter how it's implemented. It's a means to get rid of an over-flow of items that build up. It does nothing IC and never will.


Rot was over-implemented, and the subsequent outcry against it caused a knee-jerk swing to under-implementation to the point where it is now meaningless. I personally think somewhere in between what we have now and what we had originally would restore rot to being a force to upgrade to better tools and also acceptable to most players.

But whatever, that's irrelevant at this point. Please focus all your energy on what I'm about to say:

I have said it many times before, but I'll repeat myself: I think the current depressed state of the game is entirely natural. The Cantr I play is not fundamentally different from the one I played when I first signed up a long time ago. The biggest difference is the lag, which honestly doesn't bother me. I enjoy playing, enough that I'm willing to wait a few more seconds to do it. Players will get bored with any game over time, and when they do, they make excuses for it because they don't -want- to be bored, but there's no way to stop it. It just happens. Eventually bored players quit, and as long as they are replaced, there's no problem.

However, Cantr's players are not being replaced. I wasn't around at the creation of this game, but based on my observations of many other games, I'll take a guess at how Cantr started: A bunch of folks made the game and they told their friends, who told their friends, who told their friends. The number of players soared. Eventually, people ran out of friends to tell, but no big deal, because there were tons of people playing. Eventually, people started getting bored and found excuses to leave, and we are where we are now.

Cantr is replacing players at a rate equal to its marketing efforts, and nothing more.

Eventually, the player numbers will reach a new homeostasis based on this influx, and the player numbers will level out at greatly depressed levels.

If Programming focuses it's efforts on lag reduction (to encourage player retention), and Marketing comes up with a sustainable marketing strategy (to get new players), Cantr will be back on solid footing. Unfortunately, I honestly believe that at this point, neither of these can be done without spending money. PLIT games is the only free game I've played that has continual player growth, and I know they spend money on advertising.

I honestly believe that this is a Truth, and I'm going out on a limb and saying so. Money makes up for a lack of expertise, so unless we get a crack team of university trained marketers on staff, I don't see any more happening there than we already have. I'm also going to say that we need to get more people in the programming department. I see we have some new aspirants, so lets get them trained and working. If some oldbies on the GAC have to come out of retirement and lend a hand, then that's what has to be done, but having only two programmers is not sustainable. If Chris or Marol quit tomorrow, what do you think would happen to Cantr? This game is one tragic accident away from extinction.

Jos, I know that you're not really involved in Cantr anymore, and that you're probably not even going to read this, but you're still the Programming Chair, and you're still the creator of this game, and you're the guy that controls the money. You're the only person that can stimulate and authorize the things I've outlined above. If you don't do something, no one else can.

Kudos to all the staff that have kept this game running under the crappiest of conditions. You're all heros in my book.
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Crosshair
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Postby Crosshair » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:16 pm

Hear hear, dude... I agree wholeheartedly.
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sanchez
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Postby sanchez » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:51 pm

There are dozens of new accounts every week. We're just not keeping them interested.

On the player applications lately I notice English language players often cite google or wikipedia as where they found cantr, but a good many also cite other games' forums. So all of us can help with that. If you use forums, post about cantr, but give realistic expectations.

And like many have said, right now, with this lag it's embarrassing to reccommend the game. It's that bad. It's not a few seconds, and it's not once in a while. And every time there seems to be some improvement, it's back again.

But lag isn't the only thing that drives new players away. Newspawns are ignored. There should be no whining about losing players while that still happens. New players developing enthusiasm gives life to the game. Those are the people who can make it fun again, and they are being neglected until they idle out.
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Postby Idriveayugo » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:05 pm

sanchez wrote:
But lag isn't the only thing that drives new players away. Newspawns are ignored. There should be no whining about losing players while that still happens. New players developing enthusiasm gives life to the game. Those are the people who can make it fun again, and they are being neglected until they idle out.


That's why i suggested we have newspawns only go where they are wanted.
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sanchez
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Postby sanchez » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:34 pm

I hate to do this, but you really should read through: http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5578
about some of the potential for abuse with selective spawning.

I remember seeing in Dory a buddy system for newspawns which seeemed really good. And I've seen other towns with designated greeters. There are probably many simple things that could help that have nothing to do with progd nor controversial or complicated changes. Just RP.
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Postby formerly known as hf » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:44 pm

For anyone who's been reading these forums for any length of time, this is hardly new - Cantr has been 'dying' for ages now. Every now and then it's discussed, poeple um and er, but I don't think there's a whole lot that can be done.

Cantr is niche. And it only ever gives out what you put in.

It's also not really a 'casual' game - it doesn't adhere to the ideal of only needing a few minutes a day. To reach a level which will sustain interest, Cantr actually takes quite a lot of time and effort.

Given the above, it's hardly surprising player numbers are declining, and I'm not sure a whole lot can be done to replace them.
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Doug R.
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Postby Doug R. » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:09 pm

sanchez wrote:Newspawns are ignored. There should be no whining about losing players while that still happens. New players developing enthusiasm gives life to the game. Those are the people who can make it fun again, and they are being neglected until they idle out.


Strictly speaking, characters should act in character. If it's not in a character's personality to greet newspawns, they shouldn't do it just because the game needs to retain new players. Doing otherwise is technically a CRB.

We can ask the players to shoulder some of the burden, but we shouldn't have to. If the players wanted to work, they'd join staff. If 5 new players stay out of every 150 that sign up under the current conditions (lag, being ignored, etc), the best way to get more players is to just get more players to sign up. Marketing efforts are sustainable, player participation is not.

Using lag as an excuse to not promote the game is is self-defeating. The lag is pervasive and it's not going anywhere. It's here to stay, at least until some radical changes are made. If you're waiting for it to go away before you tell people how great the game is, then you'll be waiting for a very long time. We deal with the lag and we still log in to play. I think it would be better to let new players decide for themselves if they want to tolerate the lag than to never tell them about the game at all.

(For the record, I'm logged in pretty much from 8am EST to 10pm EST and, except for the project and traveling processing times, the lag is entirely manageable for me; it is just seconds).
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marol
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Postby marol » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:48 pm

Doug R. wrote: If Chris or Marol quit tomorrow, what do you think would happen to Cantr?
Neither me or Chris were an active programmers for months and still we aren't. We barely do only support jobs. The worst thing is that aspirants need training, but we can't do that as unactive programmers. So we lose them... as we already lost two decent aspirants recently.
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w.w.g.d.w
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Postby w.w.g.d.w » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:56 pm

Where is STATISTICAL OVERVIEW CANTR??? :x
Is very badly?
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Pilot
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Postby Pilot » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:58 pm

No it's not. They have the end of the year blues :lol:

Happy New Year kids!!! 8)
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Postby tiddy ogg » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:34 am

[quote="formerly known as hf"]For anyone who's been reading these forums for any length of time, this is hardly new - Cantr has been 'dying' for ages now.
Cantr is niche. And it only ever gives out what you put in.

It's also not really a 'casual' game - it doesn't adhere to the ideal of only needing a few minutes a day. To reach a level which will sustain interest, Cantr actually takes quite a lot of time and effort.

.[/quote]

Most towns to which my chars have been are one by one awake person. We need more. The game is advertised as only needing a few minutes a day, but it needs more who can put in far more time than this.
As to spawning points: that's what we had when I started... and the long-term residents of those spawning towns were fed up with all these know-nothing chars and thus ignored them. So all I can do do is be a pathetic hand-wringer adding to the gloom and doom.
Except to get on my hobby-horse and suggest again trying to attract the silver surfers with time on their hands, rather than youngsters with far more exciting things to do.
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Postby Idriveayugo » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:24 am

tiddy ogg wrote:
As to spawning points: that's what we had when I started... and the long-term residents of those spawning towns were fed up with all these know-nothing chars and thus ignored them.


You didn't read the actual suggestion did you? You assumed you knew what the suggestion was didn't you? One of the things which irks me the most is when people do that. If you want to comment on a thought, read the thought. Otherwise don't talk.

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