Cantr Combat System

[Talapus]

Armour has been heavilly discussed... and sadly ignored

Hardly. Armor has been heavily discussed, and conclusions have been drawn. As has been discussed before, armor cannot be added to the current combat system for more then just programming reasons. As that is the case, armor will have to wait until there is a major restructure of the combat system.

[Phalynx]

Hardly. Armor has been heavily discussed, and conclusions have been drawn. As has been discussed before, armor cannot be added to the current combat system for more then just programming reasons. As that is the case, armor will have to wait until there is a major restructure of the combat system.

Which was my reason for raising it!

It would foolish to talk about bgizarre complicated notions of combat and then miss something fundamental, with so much opportunity for character development with a whole new line of manufacture.

[Nalaris]

The combat system badly needs to be revised...

Sun Tzu's Art of War said that there were basically six things involved in succesfully winning a battle,

1.Heaven(basically a combination of things like weather and other factors determined by seemingly random chance).
2.Earth(mostly the terrain)
3.Moral law(more accurately, morale law. If the troops think they're fighting for a good cause and they also happen to be well-fed, they'll fight harder).
4.The Commander(Pretty much just strategy and making sure the disciplinary actions don't start to affect #3).
5.Method/Discipline(Discipline, organization, etc. Communication is a part of this).
6.Numbers. Solid numbers are always good.

I think a good addition would be
7.Quality of Arms and Armor.

As of right now, Cantr only accounts for the seventh one and, in some rare cases, the sixth. I guess if 'hit-and-run' counts as strategy, than you also have 4. We're missing a lot of necesarry combat essentials.

[Marian]

Am i the only one that hopes armor never gets added?

It'll be just like shields and weapons, everyone everwhere going for the same ones, and then constantly clunking around town with it even if they're just a baker or whatever. At least with nice useless clothes you get variety, not everyone wearing or wanting to wear the exact same 'best' outfit.

[SekoETC]

If carrying an armor would slow down daily activities such as farming then people would be less inclined to use it during non-hostile situations. If shields had to be equipped then it could work in a similar fashion.

Many people currently rp shields as if they were carrying them in their back, because naturally it wouldn't make much sense to hold a shield in your hand when you're supposed to be doing something. So if equipping was implemented, it should be possible to carry a shield strapped to your back, although it would then only protect from sneak attacks, not direct ones aimed at your face.

It would be more natural to have for example leather bracers protecting your wrists from being cut open, and maybe some light shield such as tortoiseshell worn over your chest under clothing. Shields are currently too easy to forget, thus you don't pay much attention to them. But naturally if an attack came, you would stop your current activity and bring up your shield if there was time for that. So equipping that only works manually would not be the answer.

[SCUBA]

The combat system badly needs to be revised...

Sun Tzu's Art of War said that there were basically six things involved in succesfully winning a battle,

1.Heaven(basically a combination of things like weather and other factors determined by seemingly random chance).
2.Earth(mostly the terrain)
3.Moral law(more accurately, morale law. If the troops think they're fighting for a good cause and they also happen to be well-fed, they'll fight harder).
4.The Commander(Pretty much just strategy and making sure the disciplinary actions don't start to affect #3).
5.Method/Discipline(Discipline, organization, etc. Communication is a part of this).
6.Numbers. Solid numbers are always good.

I think a good addition would be
7.Quality of Arms and Armor.

As of right now, Cantr only accounts for the seventh one and, in some rare cases, the sixth. I guess if 'hit-and-run' counts as strategy, than you also have 4. We're missing a lot of necesarry combat essentials.

You are wrong!

All six are deffenetly in the game as it is today.

1. Heaven could be interpreted as all OOC influence. Not beeing able to fight becease the player behind the character have RL stuff to do. Or has a bad ISP. Successfull lockpicking or not is also a "heaven" thing.

2. Earth. In Cantr Boats, locked buildings and vehicles as essential in all battles, so this is IMHO the main factor in all battles.

3. Moral law. Mostly sleeping sickness in Cantr. Characters that are alert, awake every hour, has many times better chance to win a battle.

4. The Commander. Leders also do all the difference. Both if they are smart and know the possible tactics in the game. (I play a realy bad leader organasing his towns defense, any pirate boat could just overrun the town ;-) )

5. Method/Disipline. Draging together, pick first and same victim, not hit until total tired etc... All very important things in cantr combat.

If one of your soldiers just go out and hit all enemies until he is 100% tired, and then starts to repair his shield outside in the open. He will soon be killed. Putting his (your sides) crossbow in the hands of the enemy. =/
A good leader would kill him of or drag him "home" just to save the crossbow. Atleast if the enemy didn't have good weapons before.

6. Numbers! Makes also all the differens. 1 charcter can often not kill another eaquale equipped one in less than 5 days, 5 characters can if they are awake somewhat simultaneously do the kill in a minute. Much more with draging. 3 awake character (much more possible if the army has 10+ soldiers then if it has 4) can drag all the enemies to their locked buildings in minutes. 1 or 2 characters can normally don't do it at all.

7. Arms and armour. Not that much actually. I got a ironshield and steel battle axe character killed by a bagh-nakh and bone shield one. The differense was that he was on the outside of a locked door and my char on the inside. A crowbar is much more than arms and armour, and keys even more. Killing the townleader and get all keys as a pirate is far more of a success than killeng all guards in town wnd get the shilds and weapons.

[Nalaris]

1. There is still no weather, which is mainly what the 'Heaven' is about.
2. 'Terrain' is not buildings and boats. The 'locked doors' method sucks badly. I don't think anyone likes the fact that that is the most effective way to wage war.
3. Your comments on morale seem to imply that it translates to Cantr because an enjoyable character will be played more often and thus be alert enogh to fight...but that still doesn't affect the fact that the character, for example, might not actually want to be fighting this battle.
4. I don't know much about how towns are run, but to my understanding the only defense that can be made is 'if you see a bad guy, hit 'em, and if they run away, follow 'em'. The only attack is 'get inside a building, lock it, run outside and hit someone with a claymore, then run back inside'. One feasibly option for attack or defense in every situation is not strategy.
5. Alright, so discipline factors in in that you have to have people smart enough to recognize that not doing what they're told ends up in death. That doesn't account for organization(no need for a chain of command, just one leader to tell everyone to follow the exact same strategy in every battle, no matter how big your army or the enemies' is), and it's hardly discipline (i.e. getting spooked and running never factors in because there's no fear that you'll be attacked as long as you go with the assassination strategy).
6. Numbers mean nothing unless you only have one person, or if you're under-equipped. With two people who both have a claymore/crossbow, you can kill one person in one day. If you act simultaneously, they won't have a chance to respond. No amount of defenders means a thing as long as you make sure you bring extra locks.
7. Thank you for pointing out that NONE of the effective points in combat apply in Cantr. Sorry for the mistake.

As was pointed out by SCUBA, the combat system in Cantr is COMPLETELY broken, with a solid 0/7 of Sun Tzu's factors of war represented in game.

[Nixit]

We don't live in Sun Tzu's world, though. It's not really a real time game, and it's a text game, so I don't really know what you expect.

Weather is possible, but really not necessary.
Terrain? If there were graphics, this might be able to be applied more effectively. There's no easy/good way to implement terrain affecting warfare.
Moral Law? Again - you can't implement this really in any game IC'ly, because it's a digital character, and we are not experiencing any tiredness. However, like it was said, the player might become more active.
Strategy - I hope you don't expect to see like formations, or complex stuff, because anything like that would be not practical.
Numbers - well, numbers are always good, but activeness does prevail sure.

All in all - I see what you mean, but this isn't this world, and so Sun Tzu would not have very relavent ideas. I just don't know what you expect with these various things.

[The Sociologist]

Keep it simple, keep it simple.

The change introducing tiredness for dragging is one small step, and a potentially very interesting one. Programmers should perhaps next look at:

1. Giving more characters a combat-worthy skill of some kind, perhaps based on their other skills and attributes. Apart from strength, there might be agility, dexterity, stealth, and so on. If someone is a clothier, that might mean they should tend to dexterous and be better with light-bladed weapons. And so on. But let this be done carefully a bit at a time, not introducing the wholesale destruction of character's lives that occurred when skills were first introduced. Quite frankly, the game cannot afford that now.

2. Let programmers also look at futher reducing the absoluteness of locks, perhaps introducing easier breaking of simple locks by multiple characters working together using simpler tools (project requires a minimum number to conclude), and then in turn introducing higher-value locks that would require building improvements, and so on.

3. A very simple blocking-project, allowing one character to step "in front of" another and take the blows for them, might be an appropriate futher step. Nothing too radical, but certainly something that would promote cooperation, organization, and the roleplaying of same. Just consider for a moment how interesting such a simple tactic might become if combined with the implications of (1) above.

There is really no need for programmers to reinvent the wheel or launch a ship to Mars. All that has ever been needed is simple balancing work. It is a tragedy that it took so long. But at least we know now that someone in GAC is aware that problems have arisen and need work. A hopeful sign.

(Note I remain opposed to any automation and any attempts to "speed up" combat which might require players to log on multiple times a day or stay online for long periods at a time).

[Talapus]

2. Let programmers also look at futher reducing the absoluteness of locks, perhaps introducing easier breaking of simple locks by multiple characters working together using simpler tools (project requires a minimum number to conclude), and then in turn introducing higher-value locks that would require building improvements, and so on.

This has actually been talked about quite a bit in the staff forums and remains a possibility for the future.

[SekoETC]

If breaking of locks became possible without steel tools, I think it should be possible to camoflauge your mudhut then, so that not every gang of Russians is gonna be breaking down the door just because they can. Or how about burying treasure chests into the ground? I mean how are you supposed to keep a secret stash if sailors have the tendency of docking into every location dockable? (Ok, the answer is, have your base somewhere off the coast. But that requires building yet another building. And what if you're an ordinary pirate? If you leave your ship to the shore and go carrying loads of loot to the inland, the chance is someone's gonna steal your boat while you're on it.) In Cantr, travelling takes time, if you get a motorcycle then travelling takes time but you're gonna end up with very little capacity. So it becomes essential to have a stash, or several stashes. If you feel like starting as a land pirate once you're done exploring then it should be possible to have some chance of hiding your loot without having to leave someone to guard the door.

[SekoETC]

Current Cantr battle system

Terrorizing a town alone

If you have several locked buildings, you can lure people into them and lock the door. But this only works once or twice, after that people become wary.
Hiding in a building/buildings allows you to snipe at people with relative safety, but in big towns, someone is always awake, so you must be sure not to come out more than once in an hour. Because if you get hurt, you can't get through shields anymore, especially if you're a poor fighter.
If you have several locked buildings, but the enemy has crowbars, you should keep track of how far the lockpicking has advanced and which locks have been broken. You mustn't run without a plan. Instead of running from building to building, always return to your "base" after making the move, and wait.
If you're going to reply to people, write it while inside, then run outside, copy-paste, hit enter and run back inside. Or better yet, slip notes. Actually, communication is just a way of making you stand outside long enough to be hit or dragged.
Be prepared to kill people if they don't meet your demands. Target the ones most likely to carry important keys. Killing helpless youngsters might help in getting a point through but then everyone is gonna hate you and fight even harder.
Preferably you should have a bunch of healing food. But a situation like this happens only in two cases: 1) a town official dies and drops all the keys, you're first one to grab them and 2) you are that town official, gone nuts and wanting revenge. In case 1, there won't be any planning, you either have healing food or you don't. If you don't then hopefully no one else has either. In case 2 there might be more planning involved. But you might as well invite people indoors for a party and then lock-em up.


Battle on roads

Basically, the one with the fastest vehicle wins. But that's not quite true, even numbers do count. You should plan it so that if the town you're attacking doesn't know you're a threat, you must calculate when travelling progress happens, then stay idle until like ten or five minutes early, then hit your target and flee. I'm not sure if it's possible to go out of range in one hour with a bike. So it's better to have a motorbike.
If you're attacking only a small group of people or a single person, you could try dragging them into a building (provided that you're strong enough) so that they don't know which way you left. That should give you enough time to escape. But most likely you're gonna be too tired to succeed alone. Dragging first, then hitting might work, but make sure the building doesn't have a lock or according to Murphy's law, the only person with the key is gonna be awake just as you step in.


Piracy

If you're close enough to the shore then you can dock in one turn. But if it's a longboat then it's gonna take three turns anyway, no matter if you're right close to it. It's kinda backwards... With a raker you can dock like anywhere that's kinda close, but you'll end up in a harbour so there's a chance someone's gonna lock the door if you start breaking havoc. I haven't sailed a sloop but that might be a good option. Or hell, the darters are kings. The darters are invincible. Nothing docks to those buggers. So all you gotta do is move swiftly while on the shore.
If you're not a known pirate and if you can't dock instaneously, to lower doubts you might want to drop your crowbar and weapon on the deck, thus anyone looking at you will think that's just a trader. You could sit there watching silently for the three real-life hours, taking notes of who's active, if anyone, what weapons do they have, if they're tired, wounded... It might be nice to know if there's any boats in town, especially dinghies, but if you want to pretend to be a total sleeper then naturally you cannot step off the boat.
When there's ten or five minutes to travelling progress, it's time to move. If you're just gonna hit people then you don't even have to step ashore, you can do it from the boat because even swords are ranged. Neat, huh? But if you want loot then naturally you gotta venture it. No one's gonna suspect anything once you step ashore. But once you start running around buildings, you can be damn sure they're gonna start screaming. Only pick what you need. Make sure to get outta there before the time limit. Since here's the trick, once you undock, set course that's not a round ten or 5 ended number. So they'll have a hard time following you. And you'll have an hour's lead because no one's gonna have time to react before turn progress. Otherwise if they undock to the same direction, they can dock to you straight away.
One good thing for looting a big town would be to have henchmen, but you'd have to give them keys because if you leave the boat open then someone's gonna hop in and undock. Also make sure that none of them will abbondon you. You abbondoning them is a choice but don't tell that to them. Anyway, it would be good to know the amount of buildings in advance, and divide them between the people. Then you also gotta make sure everyone is awake and knows the plan, knows to move on the right moment without whispering. No whispering while docked, 'cause that's suspicious.


Sea battle

Cantr is so ingenious that if you can dock to someone, they cannot dock to you. Because it's all about sizes. Hah. So if you have a big boat, you just run the hell away from anything that could dock to you, and if you're in a small boat, dock, hit, undock, follow direction. Or you might leech onto them if you have enough healing food to waste.
If you're planning to dock to another boat then be sure to ride right on top of them, even if they were stationary, because chance is they might have a dinghy and dock to you while you're in process of docking to them. And the mere attempting to dock somewhere usually qualifies as piracy. Though if you got someone docked to your boat, someone with big weapons while you have none, you better be nice to them and just hope they go away.

[Pie]

I would personnally like to see the specialasation of wepons, and the ability to make complicated martial arts, and the like.

[Nixit]

I agree with just about everything the Sociologist has to say.

[Marian]

I agree with just about everything the Sociologist has to say.

Ditto.

There is really no need for programmers to reinvent the wheel or launch a ship to Mars. All that has ever been needed is simple balancing work.

Especially that. It applies to lots of things in Cantr, not just combat...that's what I think pretty much every time someone posts ideas for super complicated drastic changes on the suggestion forum, but he worded it a lot better than I could.