Thinking about quitting.....

[Marian]

I now only stay because the bonds some of my characters have with others keeps me genuinely invested.

Same here. Though really there's only one character right now keeping me genuinely addicted, and that mostly because of their friendships and rivalries and the others around them. Once those get taken away, the decision becomes easier.

Much as I'm enjoying the other five too, I'll likely wind up killing them off before too long. There just seems very little point to continuing with them.

This whole subject is kind of a sensitive one with me, I've seen it happen so many times. It's a death knell and the start of a long downhill slide for any game. Right now this is the only game I play any more and the only game I have any desire to play. It would break my heart to see Cantr turn into FTO or any of the countless MUDs I've seen run into the ground, while I'm still fully invested and addicted to it, so...seriously wondering if it's time to start gradually extricating myself so it stings less when the inevitable happens.

[sherman]

Just curious to know what you guys mean now? Beside newspawn thieves, stolen songs on radio and maybe some degree downfall of players (Guess trolls are right term here) are only ooc things I have seen myself so just wondering what's happening

Since so many here think this way I think we should do something before it's too late.. There's already so many sleepers and so few chars that more loss will hurt more and more

[Wolfsong]

Pure speculation here, but if I had to guess, a character or characters of theirs was/were killed by characters they feel were acting or coordinating OOCly or using OOC knowledge, possibly with the (to them) subtle approval of game staff.

[hyrle]

I want to speak from the other end of this debate, because it seems to be one-sided so far. The PD has an extremely difficult job, and they do on a volunteer basis. Its very nature is thankless because their job is to make judgment calls about whether or not a player's action in the game violated rules and deserves punishment. Not only that, but the game's culture is such that they carry out their actions in secret so only those impacted by the actions of the PD are even aware of their decisions.

The PD does not hand out candy and bring sunshine and rainbows to players it needs to deal with - so anytime they need to be involved in something, it's going to be bad news. They're essentially trying to enforce a set of rules that can somewhat be seen in-game, but also requires them to make decisions about a player's OOG motivations might be as well - stuff they cannot see or know easily, even when exchanging game mail with a player. Some of what they look at it is pretty cut-and-dry, but most of what they have to rule on is very much as a judgment call.

I'm not coming at this as a player who's never interacted with the PD. I'll admit now that I've had a few dealings with them. As a player, I have a unique ongoing situation that they've been gracious enough to accommodate but that also causes me (a player) to have to be aware of the actions of another player in addition to myself. And I've even once crossed the CRB line (without realizing it at the time) and while my actions had no detrimental or permanent consequences to other characters - I still deserved punishment for that because I recognized that I broke the big game rule. I'm not going come here and scream "Unfair!" because I'm man enough to admit when I screwed up. I realized it quite clearly once the infraction was pointed out. I felt I was treated professionally and I felt the call that was made by the PD was fair. My punishment for that infraction caused me to certainly have more challenges to deal with in the game, but I'm grateful that I can still play and that the PD didn't go straight for the "ban hammer" as is often done in other games I've played.

I've also been on the other side of the coin - where I've had to report other players for what I thought might be rule violations. And - yes - like Wolfsong stated, one of them was a case where I had a character killed by what I felt might be OOC coordination. I was never informed of the results of the PD's investigation, but I'm okay with that. I knew that I shouldn't expect to know what came of my report, and expected it going into making the report. It's - quite frankly - it's really none of my business what they decided. It's between the staff and the players behind the characters I reported. Even if it resulted in players getting banned or whatever, I don't get my character or ship back, so what does it matter if I know whether or not some other players were punished? Just because my pride needed to be vindicated or whatever? Doesn't change the fact that my character - who I put 2 years of play into - is dead. It would bring me little to no comfort to know if my report resulted in anything... so *shrug*.

The larger issue here is whether the PD's actions should be transparent or discreet. Currently, the culture of the game is that their actions are discreet. When bans and other punishments are done behind-the-scenes, this will almost surely lead to accusations of favoritism, bad calls, etc. But ultimately whether the PD carries out their work behind-the-scenes or for all to see - that's a matter for the game staff to decide. If Pies and the people he trusts to run the game decide to change the culture and make PD work more transparent, then so be it. But for now, we as players need to accept that the PD's work is done discreetly. I've played plenty of games where staff actions were reported publicly - where player punishments were announced in a forum or other location. (Often this is called "name and shame".) I don't know if it changed player perceptions about the "fairness" of the rulings, but it is one approach that can be taken if the game staff thinks it would be appropriate. As for me, I accept the current culture as it is, and am happy to take my lumps when I know I deserve them.

[SumBum]

I was a little surprised by the disgruntled remarks about PD. Pilot and Theda in particular seem very devoted to helping. PD staff are human with chars of their own that may sometimes be involved in situations that get reported so I'm sure it's difficult sometimes to be completely impartial. I wouldn't let one or two staff shade the entire PD as bad, though. I personally haven't experienced it but have heard second hand of some questionable practices. There's always GAB to escalate issues if you think a staff member is handling something in a biased way.

[sanchez]

@hyrle, well said! However it’s Jos, not Pies, who is the game’s founder

PD is a thankless job done by volunteers who are also players themselves. There are very good reasons why PD cases are not allowed to be discussed. Not least among these is player privacy. Cantr is best enjoyed as an anonymous game. Even if you are the subject of a PD investigation and are willing to waive your own privacy, the players of chars around yours shouldn’t be dragged in. It compromises their play to know about cases. It’s important to remember that PD members cannot ever reveal all the information they have, if only to avoid exposing methods, tools, or private complaints from other players. So in any public discussion, one side, notably cheaters, always has more voice, and PD members have one hand tied behind their backs to confront it.

The Capital Rule is a very strange one, in that it’s never going to be enforced as a hard line that you get slapped for stepping across. It entails cooperation by all players to make the game function. PD enables this, and at time guides players forcefully by locking accounts, removing chars, or even banning players who cannot play fairly. The rule says each char must be played solely within the game context, and not coordinated with your other chars or arranged with other players. Where the lines get crossed is always going to be in unique circumstances, save really obvious examples such as attacking with multiple chars.

PD gets equally criticised in threads like these both for action and inaction. It’s nice to see them getting some support too.

[Pies]

If Pies and the people he trusts to run the game decide to change the culture and make PD work more transparent, then so be it.

As person concerned about security I don't trust anybody, and as staff member I have no relation with (nor any power over) PD, so I have no idea why you mention me.

[computaertist]

I want to say that I think PD does a great job at enforcing the rule fairly. I just hate the rule. I imagine from what I've heard that I'd love FTO if not for the waiting list.

[Marian]

The PD are players too, and also human beings. They're not infallible in a situation they may have a strong personal opinion on, and I think similar problems may arise in any situation where one or two people's word is law and they have no one to answer to themselves. While at the same time no one that they might target is even allowed to discuss a situation or defend themselves.

It's also a department where things like interpersonal skills, tact, and simple politeness go a long way, and in a small community like this with a very limited number of staff (and there may be a reason there aren't more) not everyone necessarily possesses those skills.

[sanchez]

The PD are players too, and also human beings. They're not infallible in a situation they may have a strong personal opinion on, and I think similar problems may arise in any situation where one or two people's word is law and they have no one to answer to themselves. While at the same time no one that they might target is even allowed to discuss a situation or defend themselves.

It's also a department where things like interpersonal skills, tact, and simple politeness go a long way, and in a small community like this with a very limited number of staff (and there may be a reason there aren't more) not everyone necessarily possesses those skills.

You can always complain to the Department Chair, as it’s their responsbility how their members behave, and failing that, to GAB, who may not all have experience in PD, but as experienced Staff can judge as a group whether PD members are acting in an unbiased way.

Speaking as a former PD member, there were very few cases where I had ‘strong personal opinions’ other than disliking being lied to and abused by cheaters. Most of the time, we were helping more innocent players find their way out of complicated situations or simple misunderstandings. And most cases were worked on by more than one PD member, although communication is usually one on one. All players under investigation were not only allowed but encouraged to ‘discuss a situation and defend themselves’, albeit privately and only with PD or GAB. This is most fair to everyone.

[Rebma]

The PD are players too, and also human beings. They're not infallible in a situation they may have a strong personal opinion on, and I think similar problems may arise in any situation where one or two people's word is law and they have no one to answer to themselves. While at the same time no one that they might target is even allowed to discuss a situation or defend themselves.

It's also a department where things like interpersonal skills, tact, and simple politeness go a long way, and in a small community like this with a very limited number of staff (and there may be a reason there aren't more) not everyone necessarily possesses those skills.

This is very well said, and a lot more PC than what I might have let myself type. As a former PD member as well, there are definitely some examples of the above things occurring now that I saw less often back then. Though there was a slight hint of that to come. Some people are good with power and some people aren't.

[sanchez]

[This is very well said, and a lot more PC than what I might have let myself type. As a former PD member as well, there are definitely some examples of the above things occurring now that I saw less often back then. Though there was a slight hint of that to come. Some people are good with power and some people aren't.

How do you know?

[Rebma]

First hand experience. How else?

[*Wiro]

I'm surprised to see the words "limited staff" in connection with Cantr. It seems sometimes that everyone either is or has been a staff member at some point. It's a bit messy, but it shows how much we all care about this game.

[Auryn]

Discussions like this are good. I remember once coming across a review of the game that had very negative remarks. The writer's point was that since the staff members were an active part of the game, and used their power to have certain biases and acts of favoritism due to IG reasons, and that there was little to no accountability. This review was written before I even started playing, so I have no idea what it was even about, but this is a clear example that people do discuss PD interactions with players. Visibility tells both sides of the story as opposed to the singularity of the disgruntled player. It could only make the staff look better than this sort of one-sided story. And if there are issues that need to be addressed, it gives players a way to speak up and defend themselves.