Grid system

[Revanael]

It might be nice to choose which island you started on - the Aki island, a new, less developed place where you can build a new community, or the Siom/Quillanoi island, where theres already a higly developed civilisation, which you can find you place in... Obviously not where in the island you start though.

[rklenseth]

Jos, I think I've explained my major anti-grid arguments, that's the most I can predict in that direction.

To be honest, I just think that it's too much of a work to create the code. Let's assume that you have it finished: the testing phase would be a very enormous task. I don't believe, that anyone has the software-development resources on this planet that's needed for creating this kind of v2.0 as a _free_ game. It must be a gigantic programming work, and I still don't really believe, that it wouldn't eat up much more processor time. But I don't even know the present code, so I don't know. I just don't want to have this project go Sissy-fussy, if you know what I mean. It is just so much more work than developing this present system to an equally functional (actually, in my opinion effectively _better_) level. I don't say that a grid system would definately be worse than this present game (although I see great risk, simply because of the unpredictibility of an entirely new system), but I think, that with the improvements similar to my examles this game could _become_ better than any grid-system, with much less programming work, and gradually, so that it is always remains adjustable. I would be glad to have you work on this game, and not something else, that's all. (Selfish, aye?)

You are like a traveller, who goes into a cavern, finds some treasure, and starts to spend it away large, because he thinks that every cavern holds such treasures. That is: the gods must like you very much indeed, that you've coded the way you did, and created Cantr II. This game is close to being a wonder. I don't believe that anyone thought this would be possible. And now you'd like to rewrite the code, and hope that the game won't change that much? You can't tell that. You cannot predict that. I can very easily imagine, that you would create a grid-system, test it, then transfer the Cantr World just to find out, that it doesn't work, and then we can go phylosophic about why this simple 1.0 was so wonderously functionable.

The real question is not if under a grid-system characters would live a really lively social life or not. The real question is: how in the holy hecker is it possible, that characters live such a lively social life in this present game at all?? You take it for granted. It is not. It is a wow on the 10th power. Haven't you noticed, that there are no similar games on the net? In the 21th century, with millions and millions of people involved in the internet... I think, when you found the solution of locations, you've found one factor that makes Cantr work. The definitions of the World getting too big is only one point. There must be many factors that contributes to the functionality of Cantr that we are not aware of.

I pondered over the possible explanations, and I feel that a grid system is just exactly what is able to strip Cantr of everything that makes it such functionable. But that is not much more than a feeling. What I know is that noone can predict that exactly. I hope, that you will test it very thoroughly, in case there will be a grid system. It's too big of a change, too risky. That's something against it. One more thing against it: it is a very demanding work to code it, test it, adjust it, test it, rewrite it, set it up, then stop it to test it again, then rewrite, then set it up again, just to find out that in the meantime the players have gone. Loads of work, anyway.

Now, all we have to do is find something _for_ a grid system, and check if it's worth the work and the risk. That's why I am trying to show possible improvements to this present system, which in my opinion are not worse, than a grid-system solution. All I say is that we simply do not have anything _pro_ grid-system here. Or, when discussing pros and cons, alongside pros there tend to come up more severe cons. So, I don't say that social life would be severely impaired for sure. That is a possibility, but not a definate con. Definate cons are: great risk because of the lack of graduality, and the amount of programming work.

With a grid system, Cantr would be fun to play. Less because of social issues, and more because of other issues.

OK, I should stop arguing agaist a grid system, I seem to repeat myself. I hope that you don't spend all your time on the grid-system, and that you will have time to improve this present system.

[quote="Jos">I love The Sims for their graphics and how you can build things etc., but I get bored within a few hours, whereas I can play Cantr for years), and that really is not affected and more likely increased, by introducing a grid.</quote]

I don't think so either, of course. OK, maybe I am too scared of changes. Maybe Cantr will be just a tiny little bit worse with a grid system than it is today. I don't know, really.

I would like to be enthusiastic for the grid system, it sounds so cool. I'm trying to convert, but I just cannot find one single feature of the grid system that would have more pros then cons in terms of social life on Cantr. Will you please help me find one?

Designing 2d structures in a grid is just too much fun. I'd probably spend much-much more time walking around, and consequently less time with social issues, I'm afraid. I don't know. Maybe not.

Btw, I am very ambiguous about the grid system. It's just I am contantly trying to convert myself, and ultimately I just write down the counterarguments. I hope, that this scepticism can do good to the whole project.

I disagree with you argument that the social aspect will be hurt. There are always loner characters in game that go off and do what they want regardless of it anyone is with them or not but I think players play their characters in a social way and if Cantr 2.0 was to introduced I don't think that will change. In fact I think it will even be strengthed because now land is scarce so the community will have to band together to build farms and better transportation. This would lead to very close farming communities. I don't see that as a social problem but as a way society shoudl work. Many places in history have spread out when they have become too large but very soon in Cantr we will run out room for that on many of te older islands. The grid system would solve this as now there will be land.

Plus, explorering characters have pretty much become non-existant on the old islands. Everything has been discovered so not much point on exploring except to report new societies which don't really change that much. Now with a Cantr 2.0 version a explorer may never even be able to explore the entire island in his or her lifetime.

[Siphersh]

Wow, these land-things are really good points. The scale and depth of questions regarding land controll and land property would probably increase greatly with a grid system.

This way, noone can ever be sure about the stance of things: you may think, that you "control" the land, but you're just simply not _aware_ of the handful of people in the woods, with one building, who have found gold along the creek, and are close to buying up your land from the king...

[rklenseth]

Wow, these land-things are really good points. The scale and depth of questions regarding land controll and land property would probably increase greatly with a grid system.

This way, noone can ever be sure about the stance of things: you may think, that you "control" the land, but you're just simply not _aware_ of the handful of people in the woods, with one building, who have found gold along the creek, and are close to buying up your land from the king...

I think you are starting get that picture.

Also, it would allow for better borders and the ability to go around nation or country instead of having to go through because that was the only way. A certain expedition by my character Zak DoUrden comes to minds.

[Jos Elkink]

Wow, these land-things are really good points. The scale and depth of questions regarding land controll and land property would probably increase greatly with a grid system.

This way, noone can ever be sure about the stance of things: you may think, that you "control" the land, but you're just simply not _aware_ of the handful of people in the woods, with one building, who have found gold along the creek, and are close to buying up your land from the king...

LOL ... after all the fierce debate, you really turn around suddenly ... But I do still think you made some very valid points ... Not ones that will stop me from creating the grid, but ones that will force me to think twice about effects and about what I can do about them. So I do thank you for your constructive comments ...

And Richard, you don't need to quote many paragraphs of a person just to add a few points ...

[wietse]

I just read this topic now, and i think it is a very good discussion.
As Siphersh seems a bit alone in his 'critics' i must say i share must of his ideas or fears. (i am not gonna repeat his points though) Although i think a good working grid system is certainly possible, it will take some very good programming, a lot of programming and a lot of playtesting to make it work as well (as flawless) i would say as the current system.
The most important thing i agree with actually is that improvements on the current system can quite easily contain all the suggested improvements on gameplay a grid system can. except maybe the complete freedom of movement, which i dont see as a real improvement in gameplay (i just hate those 3d roleplaying games, where you keep wandering aimlessly without getting anywhere interesting).

Jos main argument to me seems the current database system is getting to large and slow. I guess this could be the case, but then i dont know much about programming internet based databases. Is it not just the question of a faster better server that solves this problem? If not i can imagine a client program could solve a bit of this problem also, but it can be a location based client with improved grapihcs, instead of a grid based client. I personnaly think that with the current gameplay, the lack of graphics keeps the number of players from growing extremely fast. A text based game is just to much or to little for many players.

Maybe Jos can explain a bit about how big this speed/size problem is with the current database/location system. (i assume with a grid system you gotto download things also?)

[west]

My main argument against the grid system is that of too much complexity.
many of my concerns have already been voiced by myself or others, but here's a recap for those who are new/weren't listening:

When I first started playing the game, in the early 200s, the game was infinitely less-complex.

With every innovation, every complication (example, mechanical changes, dynamic naming, combat changes) etc., it was feared that the game was getting too complicated--seasoned veterans were able to keep ahead of the curve, but it kept getting more complex for new players.

Now, we keep getting new players, and nearly all of those oldies who quit don't REALLY quit, so I don't think we've reached critical saturation of complexity just yet, but I'm not sure that a grid-style cantr will be cantr.

as Sipheresh mentioned, this game is unique. I usually argue against anything that would prevent fresh blood from getting into the game. As it is, newbies have little-to-no change of stirring things up in the established world, whereas it was quite easy in the past to form something like the Lad Empire with mined steel, hammered sabres, constant damage, and non-dynamic names.

Now, perhaps that mirrors real life, in which it's hard--but not impossible--for one person to change things, but I still worry about playability for the younger set.

I'm a wet blanket, maybe.

[The Industriallist]

I'm not sure that a grid-style cantr will be cantr.

That is really my concern with the grid thing. Maybe it is cool, but is it still cantr?

I agree with the rest of the post, but I think it is off topic...

[The Crazed Sheep]

I have absolutley no idea what the "pros" or "cons" of the grid system are. I have no knowledge of programming, and I'm sure you all are infinitly more informed on the topic...

...But I think Cantr is fine the way it is, to tell you the truth. It may not be incredibly advanced or sleek, but it is unique and IMHO efficient. I find one of my main attractions to Cantr is it's format. I can see minor changes to Cantr being made, but I do not think a major change to the fundamentals of Cantr would be for the better.

[Appleide]

I don't have too much time to read all that, took me 30 minutes to read just 3 pages! yes and anyways, I'll get down to my point..... making it downloadable would really limit the number of players of cantr unless that downloadable is made for EVERY operating system which is hard work..... So if this is going to happen please make that downloadable for Mac as well as Linux, windows, Unix and all the other ones! The only reason I liked and play cantr was because it was
1. Slow game
2. Simple textbased mostly but not too much textbased like the other dos-like ones where you have to learn a whole new language to do something like eating where you type four lines of code for it
3. It could be played as long as you have web access