Increased Smelter capacity

[wietse]

the hardest part of making iron is indeed getting all the resources together at the same place and in a continous supply.

But the most work (60%+) in working days of making iron was spent working at the smelter. The work inside was a perfect place for some less involved and active character to work on. They could easily work on a 20 day project without having to worry about being killed by animals. For economic resources gathering you need active (and clever) characters (players). They have to be trusted to take back bikes and resource harvesting tools and such. And need to have an iron shield (at least in the dutch area).

This change efficitivly eliminates most factory work. Where i could have 7 people working inside, now only 1 (or 2 if you take into acount the increased production rate). have to work inside. the rest has to switch jobs to resource gathering i guess.

In my experience only certain vehicles seem a bit expensive. But that is also because they are not really usefull. I cant imagine what a bus that carries 25 persons could be used for in the game.

So i dont see why a problem a the top of the production tree (too expensive tools and vehicels) should be fixed by change a production rate completly at the bottom!.

The change effictifly devalutes all excisting iron and steel and all things made by iron or steel by 2 times.
and it shifts most factory work to resource gathering making concentrated companys harder to manage.


Some may ask, well when you could pull iron out of the ground and that changed not many people complained. Well that was because the value of iron increased by that changed. so anyone who build up some stores or iron was happy. For new players it didnt matter because they knew nothing else.

All in all, i think its not a minor change but one of the most important changes made in the last year or so. more important than the introduction of skills and tiredness and such and should be announced as such.

i go as far as to say that the iron and steel production rate determines the speed of the game (how quickly societys evolve). I think the game speed will be increase by about 20% (a guess) by this change.

[wietse]

and to bowser:

I dont stop calculating

Calculating things and managing a company is why i play this game.
Its the fun part of the game.... (at least one of them)

[julie2]

You could say the whole purpose of the change is to devalue iron, and speed up the game, so I accept that in principle, I just think it’sa hugely ineficient way of going about it, when you follow through all the ramifications, The desitred effect will only show up after long-hard struggle to increase resource gathering to the requisite level, and that effect will be much smalle than intended, I believe. The cost of iron will go probably down quit rapidly (to roundabout half what it was) , but unless the supply increases proportionally, that will only help to distribute iron more evenly, and narrow the gap between the “iron class” and the “peasants.” Which is fair enough, but NOT the intended effect. The desired effect is to get more iron in the game, so that the larger machines and vehicles become easier.to build. I have serious doubts as to whether that will happen at all.

It’s nice to see that somebody else appreciates the intrinsic management problem, Wietse . It’s frustrating to find that so many people don’t. I guess it only directly affects a minority of managers (those with large operations, who actively seek out resources rather than waiting for resources to come to them), but they’re a crucial minority. As you pointed out, we need a remakarbly good supply of clever, wakeful charasters to implement the shift in emphasis., which flies in the face of the existing social balance. You can’t dismiss social issues as irrelevant to this scenario. This is Cantr not Sim City. People won’t just shift around like so many robots in reponse to economic pressures. They have individual drives and limitations which need to be taken account of. That’s the problem, in a nutshell.

@Bowser- You’re talking as if the Programming Department is omniscient, and implement everything perfectly first time. Which isn’t so. A lot of changes have needed adjustment , and some have been scrapped altogether because it turned out that they more problems than they solved . What some of us are trying to do is to predict that this is going to happen, and hopefully forestall the said problems, by getting the tweaking done NOW rather than later. You pointed out that the iron industry has become a lot more complex , and that people have adapted. But in the process of adapting it’s had to become much more tightly structured and, hence, more rigid and more vulnerable change. It’s unique, not only in it’s complexity but also inasmuch as the process takes years to go full cycle, from sending out a resource runner to turning out a finished product. That takes a lot of foresight and planning (unless you’re willing to risk the whole operation grinding to a halt for years at a time. That’s fine if it’s a cottage industry run strictly for personal gain, but disastrous where a whole community depends on that industry)

Shift the goalposts , and people CAN adapt, true, but that adaptation will also take years to bear fruit. However bad the change might turn out to be, it will likely that long to study it’s effects and decide it needs “tweaking”. The net result? You’re running back towards a whole new set of goalpsts before you’ve quite finished reaching these current goalposts. A “cure” at that stage in proceedings would be almost as bad as the disease. Sure, I’ll adapt, but I wouldn’t blame anyone for giving up, in a state of despair, because they never quite succeed in reaching their goals. For myself my adaptations are going to very tentative, because I’ve no confidence at all in this current change lasting the couse. I’m expecting the goalposts to shift once again, some time in the future.. I’ve spent years building up an efficient system under current parameter, and , yeah, I’m glum, because I don’t get to demonstrate how nicely it works. It’s outmoded the moment it’s running smoothly, and I’m sure my adaptations will also become outmoded before they ever really bear fruit.

I’m not against change. What I want at this stage, is a well-thought-out change which won’t need substantial adjustment, some few Cantrian years down the line. This complex and slow-moving industry just isn’t equipped to cope with change at that sort of frequency. I think the proposals which I put forward n an earlier post will preclude the need to change it all over again--- if only they’re implemented soon , before we ‘re really forced to start adjusting. I might be wrong, but at least it would give me the necessary confidence to boldly stride towards a new set of goalposts.

[Pie]

Now.. let me put in my two cents. yes i know what your thinking.. it's going to be somthing stupid. WELL IT JUST MIGHT BE! But you will read it anyway.. becous you have nothing els to do.

why dont you (in real life) just go and mine some hepatite and trade it for stuff? hmm? becous the hepetite doesn't belong to you. why don't you just sit around and gather potatoes for the rest of your life? becous the potatoes don't belong to you. you have to "trade" for them. as i see it.. trading is the intier problem with the cantr sociaty and having better trade would put down the need for this at all. and there is a simple thing that you can do to stimulate trade.(to find the answere... read what i said)

[Lumin]

Hepatite? Isn't that some kind of STD?

But shockingly enough I actually find myself agreeing with Pie here. It's just too bad so much of Cantr's "economy" has become dependent on a bunch of sheep who sleep on the job rather than actual characters with personalities, but I see that as more of an IC concern than anything.

[Pie]

well.. just think about my post for a secont. let's say that you are a buisnes ouner.. and suddenly..(ime going out on a limb here) the resource that you have been mining can now end.. and now you have to trade for it becous the government made it so only a few companis can mine it. that would DEFINATLY stimulate trade. THINK ABOUT IT JOS! IN THEREY IT COULD WORK!

[Nick]

Cantr society gets screwed over when new changes happen.
Stop frickin complaining, this is a work in progress.
New changes are implemented with the FUTURE in mind, not grumpy forumers who want to keep their wealth.

[Pie]

i personally have no welth in cantr. my caracters are always poor.. and nick.. i am thinking of the futcher.

[Nick]

Well I am sure the futcher, whoever he is, appreciates that.
If what you're saying is that only a limited ammount of people should be able to gather resources at once, it's already been implemented.

[Pie]

i don't think you'r quite lisning to me. i have to say Nick... my spelling shouldn't be a matter with such a discution such as this. I am seing that you are discriminating my thinking just becous my thoughts arn't as "pretty" as anyone elses.. so Nick.. get over it.

As for what i am saying.. is that we need to have a reson for governments to restrict a resourse and only let sertain companies get that resource. but why would a government restrict a resource that is never ending, even if only a few people can work on that resource.. why stop them?

so.. if you are ever going to understand what i am saying take a hint from real life.

[Lumin]

Pie, I think the problem is that much of the time we can't understand what you're saying. Mainly because it's not written in any known language. If you do have an important point you're trying to get across, it'd be much easier and less headache-inducing for people to comprehend what you're trying to say if you'd take thirty extra seconds to say it properly.

[Pie]

Eh, somtimes i try. In fact.. with that futcher thing.. i was actually trying. but just to say.. i was trying. Hey.. everybody makes mistakes.

[Nick]

I made a joke, and then legitimately responded to your comment. Get over it.

Only a limited number of people can gather resources at once. That's a new addition that covers the problems you've addressed, Pie.

[The Industriallist]

As for what i am saying.. is that we need to have a reson for governments to restrict a resourse and only let sertain companies get that resource. but why would a government restrict a resource that is never ending, even if only a few people can work on that resource.. why stop them?

Because they take up some of the handful of local mining spots, which the government would rater give to people who they like, or who pay them, or something like that.

Don't think modern. Depletion of resources (at any significant rate) IRL takes a lot more work than any place in cantr can dedicate to mining, woodcutting, etc. Also, if limit on natural resources were instituted, cantr's days would actually be numbered. I hope that never happens.

so.. if you are ever going to understand what i am saying take a hint from real life.

Taking a hint from real life tends to lead somewhere unpleasant. Also...where in RL is this particular hint coming from? I can't think of a government that was seriously concerned about 15 people depleting their natural resources...

[julie2]

It makes precious little difference whether you trade for resources or directly employ the people who gather them. If the nearest hematite is ten days away, you’re going to spend a lot of time going back and forth to fetch it, either way .. It’s that travelling aspect (and also the need to negotiate trade deals ) which demands clever, wakeful and trustworthy people. And, in my experience, you can easily triple the travelling required if you’re depending on trade,rather than “bring your own pickaxe” (largely becasue the towns with the goods don’t need iron, so you have to throw in other journeys to trade for the goods which they do need. And also because you can’t be sure of making a successful trade when you get there. A lot of my characterr’s trading trips fell flat because the town she wanted to trade with didn’t have a surplus for trade, One fell flat because the town leader was away on holiday. Now trade deals will also all flat because the mining towns aren't allowed to gather much of a surplus for trade. Trading in Cantr is very hard work, believe me; and it's about to get harder)

Also, you’re forgetting, Pie, if you need hematite, then somebody has to mine it, so to double the output of iron on a Cantr-wide basis, you need double the number of hematite miners, simple as that. Lay aside the question of whether you employ them or trade with them. They have to be there, and if there aren’t enough of them, then iron production will suffer. When there aren’t enough peolpe gathering you can’t cite” trade “ as an answer to that problem, because you can’t trade for goods which have not been produced.

By the way, miners in Cantr are often better off than the iron-producers, because they can demand “day rates” for their resources, even after doubling or quadupling their output by the use of tools and machines. But even that isn’t sufficient incentive in some places. My character usually trades (mostly because she doesn't have enough bikes to let them stand idly while people dig. She needs them back , ASAP), but she had to set up her own mining operation in one place, because there weren’t any people there to trade with, and production would have ground to halt if she hadn’t. But now she’s glad she did. That means that her workers (who produce the tools after all) can have their fair share of the mining wealth .
I pity the ironmakers who can't do at least some of their own mining- which is probably most of them, now.

(by the way, Pie. It looks to me like very few people are troubling to read aanybody else's posts properly. I'm sure it's nothing personal. I don't know why I'm bothering to post. I've suggested what I think will be a more effective way of devaluing iron; but I still get put down for "moaning about change " and "moaning about devaluation," just because I don't like the way it's been implemented.All most people seem to do is note whether your "for" or "against" the package as given, then guess what your reasons are, and read no further. Of course, the harder you try to explain your reasoning, the less people will bother reading what you've put. That's just human nature, I guess.)