So, what makes a successful town/character?

[griogal]

I prefer Pirog's Cantr....and I'm sure most roleplayers as well.

[Pirog]

Wow...my Peter Pan simily seems so very meek now when Griogal snorted out his view as if it was Gregor Mac Gregor himself screaming it while waving his sabre

Although I wouldn't put it as hostile as Griogal did I do agree with a lot of his view and how we see the game.

There is nothing wrong by filling in the gaps by using your imagination...Cantr wouldn't be fun without it.
Cantr is much too slow pased to ever have a realistic development of religions, history or even a personal relationshp to another person...it would take years of game time (RL time) just to try and grasp the detail of a weeks time of emotions, feelings and experiences of a loving couple in the real world...

[griogal]

Correction, Pirog, ...

Like Gregor Mac Gregor weaving his claymore, longsword and bastardsword all at once.

[Pirog]

I think the reason why a lot of the older players are so fond of the Seatown-Drojf-Krif region is because of the Mac Gregors, Craktar the Vampire and a lot of other examples of people not being limited by "playing the game that's supposed to be there".

Without such imaginative players the region wouldn't have such an interesting history, the feuds between people over things that happened before they were even born etc.

[Pirog]

When the players behind Gregor Mac Gregor and Silverfoot unites they can't be wrong

[Missy]

it would take years of game time (RL time) just to try and grasp the detail of a weeks time of emotions, feelings and experiences of a loving couple in the real world...

You have noooooooooo idea. (or maybe you do.)

[The Industriallist]

About the Mac Gregors...I never said they didn't have good RPers. I never said there was any problem with their existance. I did say that they're outright insane, individually and collectively (except any cynical wolves hiding among them...) And that statement I hold to. They kill over an offense that they both invented and have themselves honed and used often...they expect people to worship them and kiss their feet everywhere, while not doing anyone any good...they believe (or pretend to) in an extensive mythology pulled out of Gregor Mac Gregor's malfunctioning mind. This is insanity, some of it criminal. That is my OOC perspective. My character whose knowledge it's based on would have difficulty even thinking something so direct.

Do you see every kind of mythology as insanity then? Could be a quite dangerous point of view. If we extrapollate your opînions on religions as being delusional thoughts by madmen, ...what about Christianity and Islam....Buddhism, Hinduism
Religion and mythology are the founding stones of cultures, no matter how you resist it.
Not that I pretend the Mac Gregor mythology is comparable to any of the current world religions, but it is the general thought. But the polytheistic religions like those of the Greeks and Romans, as well as the Germanic ones are similar to the Mac Gregor one. As I am but one bard, it is inevitable that is yet not as rich as the Norse and Graeco-Roman traditions, but who knows, perhaps one day the regional leaders of the KDS will hold philosophical debates instead of the usual nonsense and a true religion can emerge.

One other thing, why is the Mac Gregor mythology of an afterlife insane, while the Unnamed Ones and others aren't in your opinion, Industriallist?

You are the fascist and racist, Industriallist. Your OOC hatred against the Mac Gregors is not dissimilar to Hitler vs the Jews.

It seems to me that this OOC propaganda in the best of Goebbels' tradition has but the intention to stop people from joining the Clan because of OOC reasons....Almost every thread you reply to ends in a rant about the Mac Gregors.

I personnally don't mind if the Mac Gregors are the rulers of KDS or not, but I'd like to give them a soul and identity...as Sociologist alluded to.

But I agree that isn't a culture that fits into the 21st century. That's why many see it as evil. But if you have more than two neurons, you should try from a Western point of view to understand the Chinese or Japanese culture. Extremely complex...The Mac Gregor way of life is not entirely dissimilar to that of for example the Samurai.

To truly understand the Mac Gregors, you 'd have to make a mix of British etiquette, Celtic and Germanic traditions and some elements from Graeco-Roman and Oriental traditions. If you don't have the broadness of mind to indulge in such an adventure, I can only pity you.

You've read far more into this than I've ever said. But I will defend what I have said.

I never supported ANY cantr religion. I would regard all of them, and to a degree all religions in existance, as insane. There. Happy?
The problem in cantr is that they're all pulled out of one person's mind and put down as fact. Gregor has made up a mass of random spirits, and everyone in the Mac Gregors takes them on faith. Anyone dissenting wouldn't be with them long, I expect (an assumption, I admit). And yet they all know that Gregor made them up himself. That isn't exactly a formula for strong faith, I would think.

I almost never bring up the Mac Gregors. I usually speak for them, or at least against those against them. If you actually read my writing, you would know that. But let's take your Hitler analogy. That would be right...if I were trying to kill them (I'm not), if the Jews had killed dozens (scaled up, thousands or millions) for failing to show them full respect. Well, and if I were both charismatic and psychotic.

I don't much believe in 'soul' and 'identity' in groups, so I don't see the point. Nor do I think your Mac Gregors are as converted as they want you to think...but that's only my evil mind, after all.

[Pirog]

The problem in cantr is that they're all pulled out of one person's mind and put down as fact. Gregor has made up a mass of random spirits, and everyone in the Mac Gregors takes them on faith.

That is not very similar from how most real life religions came into effect. If the prophets were in contact with an actual god, if they were lying to get power or were insane just as you claim Gregor is will probably never be known...

[The Industriallist]

The Industriallist>

I'm reasonably sure I'm the one playing the game that's supposed to be there (Obviously not a very meaningful statement)

And I'm pretty sure my Cantr is a more interesting place

To simplify it and put it from my perspective.
In the world of Hook you are Peter Benning while I'm Peter Pan.

Eat the invisible food, Industrialist...it's delicious!

Well...I would offer that you're betraying the purpose of cantr, which is to provide a realistic (kind of) world in which to play reallistic people. If you 'imagine' things that need to actually happen in the game to have weight, you've destroyed that.

I'm not too much opposed to goind for a recreational swim in the lake, or playing with the animals, or whatever. But from what you've said, stopping there isn't good enough for you...you've got to also act as if you've had more interactions than you have, randomly bond with your neighbors, or just whoever's handy...It's total nonsense! And if that's what you mean, go ahead and say what you mean. Specifically.

[Pirog]

I would offer that you're betraying the purpose of cantr, which is to provide a realistic (kind of) world in which to play reallistic people

But we have so very different visions on what a realistic world is.
A world ruled completly by reason, where noone sees anything besides what is happening and where people live according to the ultimate truth is a cause tried and rejected IRL. I don't find it interesting for a game like Cantr.

If you 'imagine' things that need to actually happen in the game to have weight, you've destroyed that.

Yes, but I obviously don't see them as needing to happen...
What you call destroying is simply improving for me.

But from what you've said, stopping there isn't good enough for you...you've got to also act as if you've had more interactions than you have, randomly bond with your neighbors, or just whoever's handy...It's total nonsense!

I know a lot of people living that way IRL too
As I have tried to say Cantr is too slow pased to allow realistic bonds between people, education that is relistic, history to be formed by being distorted by generations etc.
Is your solution to simply remove those things from the game then?

[The Industriallist]

You're mixing my point. You don't have to be ruled by reason. I don't care if you're ruled by reason, 'emotion', or chimps with typewriters. I don't care if you have hallucinations (including visions). You don't have to see the ultimate truth (which is what, exactly? I couldn't tell you...). But the things I actually address...those are things that I can't see the sense in. Or the reality.

If you 'imagine' things that need to actually happen in the game to have weight, you've destroyed that.

Yes, but I obviously don't see them as needing to happen...
What you call destroying is simply improving for me.

What if the other people involved don't feel like cooperating with your unilaterally invented connection/interaction? There's a clear consensus reality in cantr on what is said and on what people have done. Acting as if it's something different denies other players the ability to see/hear the same things you're seeing...which isn't valid if you don't intend your characters to be insane. And we really don't need that many insane people. And even less need people who can be convinced that halucinations are correct.

But from what you've said, stopping there isn't good enough for you...you've got to also act as if you've had more interactions than you have, randomly bond with your neighbors, or just whoever's handy...It's total nonsense!

I know a lot of people living that way IRL too
As I have tried to say Cantr is too slow pased to allow realistic bonds between people, education that is relistic, history to be formed by being distorted by generations etc.
Is your solution to simply remove those things from the game then?

My solution is to let those things happen as they happen. Not force them because you think that a world needs them. The important thing is, above all, to be consistent with the reality of cantr. Not to the outside world, necessarily.

[kroner]

In real life people often believe ridiculous things, rally behind shared culture and do irrational things in order to feel that they belong.
In cantr, players try to mimic this. But they as players never believe what they have their characters believe because as players they are aware of the game. So belief in game is pretend, RP, whatever you want to call it. This is fine.
BUT
there is an important line. Cantr players are so eager to emulate RL that they will have their characters believe anything, follow anyone, do the most irrational things if it makes their characters belong more to the community and to their imagined culture that they pull out of thin air. In other words, it's overdone. Players are so intent on creating culture, that they produce it where there would realistically be none. This is not effectively mimicing the actions of real people and so it is bad RP. That's what it comes down to. Sorry.

Am I saying there should be no culture? Of course not. Things would be equally unrealistic without any. But when the average cantr character is at least twice as stupid, gullable and irrational as the average person IRL, something is not right. That is a bad and extremely artificial simulation of society.

[The Industriallist]

As usual, Kroner makes the point I want to, much better than I can.

[nitefyre]

The imitation of real life is understandable, and probably should be discouraged.

Instead of dwelling on this negative aspect of Cantr Roleplay, I suggest that players try to be a little more imaginative, original and unique if they are going to create certain societies (as some have been ). I think that connects Griogal's/Pirog's rp aspects with Kroner's/Industriallist's [hey, your nickname is Industriallist (which would promote the less human aspect of development in the more technological aspects of it all- in my eyes), which can easily be related to a capitalist by the forumgoers, as you were wondering before] more society simulator (but not copycat of rl).

That's my 2 cents. Would anyone else like to invest?

[rklenseth]

The Industriallist>

I think a part of why you and me play Cantr so differently is that you apply your own OOC knowledge and feelings to your characters.

Watch your words.
Do you understand implications of this statement? You're saying that your OOC knowledge and feelings are not applied to your characters. Now I will deconstruct this claim.

Every action that a cantr character performs is dictated by the player. There is no way araound this. Every thought, statement, etc of a character must come from the mind of the player. There can be no other source. Therefore all cantr character knowlegde, personality and feelings are based on player knowledge and feelings. How can player knowledge and feelings not be "applied" if they are the only source of a characters personality? You are not exempt. There's no magical new sentient being that's created when you hit the big smiley face button, only a new partition being added to your own mind.

Ah, but what our characters would do is not what we would do which is what I believe Pirog was getting at. Quite simply the personality of his characters (as well as mine) is not his personality (nor mine) but that of which he created for those characters. I consider character personalities to be an IC rather than OOC.

Anyways, the main point that Pirog was getting at is that there are players that play their characters with the same personality (their own mainly).