Who here has been contacted by the PD?

[Bowser]

In my early days I was contacted by the PD for grouping characters. I had 4 spawn in Cantr City and 4 spawn in Olipifirovash area and 3 in Siom regions, and 1 on Sring-Sri. I tried to keep them from interacting with each other, but I did end up having them gravitate to central locations. I enjoyed certain spots and had trouble separating my characters.

The PD department politely inquired about the situation. We had a nice little back and forth email session. In the end, they wanted to make sure I understood the CR and helped me separate my characters. Since then, They have all gone their separate ways. I have to say the PD did not treat me as a cheater and seemed to genuinely want to help me straighten the situation out.

[wichita]

1. Play your character from your character's point of view, considering only what your character has experienced or has knowledge of. Do not allow knowledge gained with another one of your characters or from OOC sources to affect the decisions made by the character.

2. Play it safe and avoid situations where it may appear you are violating the first point. Two characters working together in the same location, despite the fact that said interaction may be perfectly IC behavior for the characters in question, can look potentially suspicious.

This is a paradox. You can't do number 2 and not violate number 1. Recognizing that another character is yours and taking evasive action is using OOC knowledge and it technically is itself a capital rule violation.

It's not so much a paradox as it is a caveat to the rule. True it is not in the complete spirit of aim 1, but it is a matter of OOC prudence. As I pointed out in my encounter with the PD, my characters did happen to wind up interacting with each other based on purely IC motivations. No suspicion would have been raised at all if I had found a reason to move one of them. That is the practical application of point 2.


You know that one kid growing up who was always around whenever his friends were getting in trouble? Did you ever want to suggest that maybe he shouldn't hang out with those guys because people were going to be looking suspisciouly at him even though he wasn't doing anything wrong himself? Well, it's the same principle here.

Just don't give anyone an excuse to point a finger at you, and the chances will be increased that you won't be bothered. That's all. Just play nice. And it is easy to find an IC motivation to keep characters separated. The world is a big place. Live a little. That or start fewer characters.

*shrugs* Just my 4 cents.

.

[Genevieve]

My question, when I was on the PD, was always this:

You have two characters, working together for one reason or another. Why did THOSE TWO out of so many others, decide to work together?

Why, when there are so many other choices? They could have chosen to disagree with whomever ordered them to do something. Or asked for a different assignment more to their liking. If they didn't both spawn in that place, why would one of them chose to go to that place? Each specific circumstance is examined...you aren't just reprimanded because you have two characters working together. However we want you to explain WHY they are, and then we will decide, based on discussions with you, whether that really was the only way it could have gone. Like two people going to the only place where there is food, and both help on the harvester because it is against the law to start their own project, and neither are law breakers. They each gather the carrots they earned and at least one moves on to pursue life. Well, yes that would be okay as long as they don't both decide to go the same way or decide to stay.

[Missy]

It's very difficult to make a clearer depiction of the rule, because there are good reasons at times. At others, there are people who are just plain abusing the game.

The rule has always been, "Your chars should not be cooperating without an absolutely unavoidable reason."

An example of a good reason would be, if say- You have a char in Quill and another in Siom. Say Siom goes to war with Quillanoi and crushes Quillanoi. Your Quill char was a leader. Siom says to Quill "You're going to do what we say or die." Your char probably doesn't want to die. So eventually your Siom chars are nearly responsible for those in Quill. Pretty soon, the sheriff in Siom is telling your Siom char that he's going to run Quill, after the war. Your Quill char will eventually be taking orders from your Siom char, possibly.

The above doesn't mean you're allowed to have your char in Siom orchestrate the war, just so you can have two working together.

Legitimate reasons often involve a third party. People who are honestly playing the game, don't have ten chars, and then every pair out of the ten, working to benefit one another.


We don't advise for people to do it, because at times it is hard for us to tell the difference between those who are doing things right/those who are doing it with little care to the effects it may have upon the game.

This is where the 3 per a local guideline comes in. While the spawning system is a bit screwy at times, there is far and few reasons for three chars to actually be in the same town. Not every single one of your characters are going to want to stay there if they're "individuals" like mentioned above. And when there is a good reason for three to be there, there is even fewer reasons for all of them to cooperate or believe in the same thing, unless the player isn't keeping in mind that their chars shouldn't be in those situations unless it's absolutely neccessary.

All that is wanted from Players, is to be fair. Would you like it if other players had three chars, that support one organization. Then that organization kills your char? No.
(Namely because there is no fairness in the fact three chars played by one person can come on all at one time and strike, before one char of another player may even awaken.) Nevermind there is no never-ending trust embedded in people just because they are there, in society. (Okay, GWB followers don't count. j/k IE Your own chars will respond to each other in a way that is not neccessarily a reaction that you would get from some char not played by you. This counts not only for striking other characters, but for organizations. It's not fair if three people of one person are wealthy rich, when a town with characters all played by different people aren't. (The reason why they aren't is because one person isn't dictating how things should be done, and everyone isn't agreeing wholely.)


Ways to avoid being contacted by the PD, is by contacting them yourself when you know your characters are going to come into contact with one another.


Those of you that are asking for a clearer depiction, are really asking for us to only allow one char per a player. Or you could even say that we could ask people not to allow their chars to come into contact at all, but this isn't going to be completely possible when sometimes, spawning requires that they do. ( I aint sure many players would like the idea of either of those things at ALL)

IE You have Town A, B and C. Chars in Town A and B. Char in town A wants to go to town C, but has to pass through town B.
Thats not what we want anyhow, we don't want to have to restrict that, because that's not in the best interests of the integrity of the game.

As said before, what we want is for you to be reasonable, respectful and fair to the fact we do have a pretty open rule. If the PD has to contact you five/six times, because they find that on those seperate occasions you had 6 different pairs cooperating, then yes, we're going to stop believing that you're not taking advantage of the system. If we see that you're also a common owner of many suicidal newspanws? We're also going to think you're trying to get certain chars, spawned in certain towns, so you can allow them to work with one another- especially if three of your only alive ones are sitting in the same town.
We're going to question you, if you have two chars in one town, and neither of them bothered to ask for help dragging someone aloud, but rather just started dragging someone. (Same for hitting a criminal/farming for asparagus.)

Do not "force" your characters to meet or become friends, either. If your character doesn't pay attention to anyone else in town? Then why would it pay attention to your other char there? {Be consistent when concerning a crossing of your own chars. We realize that sometimes your characters personality depends on the situation.}

If your char that's passing through a town, isn't really the type to chase thieves in his hometown, then he shouldn't be doing it in the town he's visiting just becaues your other char in that town visited, is a law enforcement agent/your own char asked.

There is no contradiction in the rule. Only one you wish was there. When I say we advise your chars don't mingle with one another, that's what we mean. It only makes things harder on yourself. We discourage it, unless it's absolutely neccessary, thanks to some factor un-enforced by you.


No, we're not saying that you need to make one char leave town B, just so A can arrive. (Unless the PD has specifically told you that on some occassion.)


un·a·void·a·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-void-bl)
adj.
Impossible to avoid

nec·es·sar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ns-sr)
adj.

Unavoidably determined by prior conditions or circumstances

You see?

[Genevieve]

:claps: very good Missy.

[wichita]

If that's not satisfactory.....nothing ever can or will be.

[Nixit]

We should put this thread under the Treasure Island thread.

[olaf]

*sighs* Or modify the CR statement on the homepage to actually reflect this in an obvious way...

[cpkangaroo]

*sighs* Or modify the CR statement on the homepage to actually reflect this in an obvious way...

Amen!

Missy, I completely understand your reasoning. Your arguement makes perfect sense. But, the current, publicly-viewable version of the CR doesn't say "Your chars should not be cooperating unless there is an absolutly unavoidable reason.". If it did, there would be no cause for confusion. Also, this is the first time that I've heard of a "three per local guideline".

I'm not arguing that there are contradictions in the CR, I'm not saying any current rulings or decision-making factors should be changed. All I'm asking for is for this information to be made clear and publicly available especially to new users.

[Missy]

On your front page, "www.cantr.net" theres a link to Description and Backround. When you sign up there is also a page which asks you if you understand the rules, if I remember correctly.

Aren't the below, exactly what I just explained to all of you?

Here:

http://www.cantr.net/ooc/index.php?page=newbieguide&l=1

Fourth, and most important:

The Capital Rule
There is one rule that governs the interaction among the characters in Cantr II.

While each individual player is allowed to have multiple characters, those characters MUST be separate and distinct individuals. This has several ramifications for the game:

Your characters are not automatically a family, a clan, a tribe, an army, a company, or so on - not necessarily even friends. They should have their own interests and goals. They should not know each other unless they happen to meet. If two of your characters interact, they should do so as though each were looking out for their own interests and goals - essentially, as though the other character were being played by a stranger. Describing your characters as a family, banding all of your characters together to form an army, or starting a character solely to produce goods or perform services for the benefit of another one of your characters (making a "mule" character) are all violations of this aspect of the Cardinal Rule.

http://www.cantr.net/ooc/index.php?l=1

There is one rule in this game, which is crucial for the game to become a success, but which is easy to cheat with. That is: all your characters are completely individual characters - thus your characters do not form some kind of clan together. You do not use your characters to play some goals for you as a player, but you think about what goals your individual characters would have and you try to think from the perspective of your character when you think about how to achieve your goals.

For the player this has the disadvantage that it is more difficult to do any kind of collective action - if you need other people for your goals, you will have to find ways to find them and to convince them, instead of just starting many characters yourself and have them all cooperate. There is also an advantage, though, as it means you can play completely different characters. One of your characters might be a police officer, while the other one is a major criminal, for example. It also means that your characters do not have the same information. If one of your characters knows a lot about a specific location, you are not supposed to use this information when you play for another character.

Please explain what it is about these paragraphs that you're not understanding, as apposed to what it is that might make what I said, understandable?

[wichita]

Reading comprehension? You expect far too much, Missy.

[Jos Elkink]

Missy's summary is indeed quite impressive ... For me, it keeps surprising me how endless discussions we need about the CR. The CR seems so totally clear to me - and, as it appears from the above, to some others as well, like at least wichita, AoM, and Serenity. The CR is not about "maximum of 2 chars in a town" or "no more than 1 char in an organisation" - these are just guidelines for the PD to find suspicious cases. The CR is about how cooperation among your own characters is so much easier than cooperation with other characters, and this advantage should not be used. If one of your character spreads an ideology, and the other immediately becomes a follower, you're clearly breaching that rule - if one spreads an ideology, everybody follows it, and you arrive with another char and also follow it, nothing is wrong. If that second char is immediately trusted as fellow speaker of the faith, it is a breach. If your char sells for a nice price to your other char, it's a breach, but if your char deals cheaply with dozens of other chars, among which one of yours, nothing is wrong ... Whenever you think what you played might have been easier thanks to having your own chars cooperate, you're breaching the rules. If Thistlethwaite trusts his banker because it's played by the same player, it's a breach. The fact that I, the author of the CR, breached it, only shows how easy and tempting it is to breach the rule. But it's not fair play.

If the PD contacts you because of suspicious behaviour, you're not 'under arrest' or something. You're simply asked to explain what's happening. You might well satisfy the PD fairly easily, and your case will be dropped.

The CR was difficult to maintain in our lego game with up to four players (but also far more than 15 chars per player). Now, we have a game of over 1800 players. Some of those have an excellent understanding of the CR and keep it; others don't fully understand it; yet others have a fine grasp, and know how to cheat without looking suspicious; etc. It is very difficult for the PD to keep track of what is happening, and the PD is fairly short on staff. Events are only kept for a limited time period and often more context is needed. The PD has to depend on people reporting breaches, and then doing an investigation. Checking events, talking to possible witnesses, talking to the 'suspect', etc. all take loads of time. Really solid proof is generally impossible, even when the breach is obvious. In other words - the work of the PD is difficult, the number of people applying for PD positions limited, and because of the trust we need to have in PD members, accepting applications difficult. So please be a bit patient and sympathetic to their work. If they investigate a case and contact you, don't get angry, accusing them of personally attacking you, immediately denying having done anything wrong, instead of trying to understand why they think something is wrong, etc. If you're friendly and cooperative, the PD is, and they won't have to feel so bad about the communication. They're also just people, having the really difficult task to keep the CR, which is really totally crucial to the game, and without which the game would be no fun.

Well, this post is getting too long and not clarifying *that* much. I'm just a bit appalled by how the PD is treated sometimes compared to the enormous amount of work they do. I see the cases being discussed on their internal forum, and you have no idea how much research goes into even some simple cases. Sometimes they might be wrong; sometimes they might catch a small fish and not seeing the big one; but they're trying, and they're understaffed, and they're good people.

If anyone has any ideas how the PD could be more transparent - to increase respect and sympathy for the PD - without giving out too much IC information concerning a CR breach, they would be very welcome.

[Floyd]

Never been contacted... I'd be interested in knowing if i'd been investigated though...

[Litchin_flip]

Well I havn't actually been contacted for anything...though not all taht long ago I had a character spawn right in the same town as one of my other charries...so of course I made him run away like a litlle sissy girl very fast

[Surly]

>Jos

I have quite alot to say on this issue. But, learning from past mistakes... should I say it publicly, or in private?If I just post it here, I know I'll end up slandering the PD... and that benefits no-one.

And there's always the chance it could all be solved amicably...