The devaluation of propane...(moved to GD from GS)

[The Industriallist]

>Solfious
Propane does have carbon (C3H8)...it's just that it has much more hydrogen than carbon, which might poison the process. Though it also might not...

Also, RL values were never used in my time in cantr. If they were, you'd use a whole lot less limestone. As I believe can be found in some other places than the book I got it from:
1 kg iron requires:
2 kg ore
1 kg coke
0.3 kg limestone
1.5 kg hot air.

So, you see...limestone should be the smallest ingredient by RL standards, not the largest.

>TSC
You there are things other than iron smelting for which fuel is used, you know. At one point, I believe propane was a very very light portable fuel for a variety of purposes. Being work-inefficient but light could be a valid role for a fuel...

I haven't really been looking at what propane can do lately, so I don't know if it has that anymore.

[Nick]

Regardless, the game mechanics are supposed to be about BALANCE.
Propane is hard to get. It should be more efficient, 'nuff said.

[The Industriallist]

Regardless, the game mechanics are supposed to be about BALANCE.
Propane is hard to get. It should be more efficient, 'nuff said.

Do you understand that there are other forms of balance?

Or maybe that there are costs omitted from calculations? You know, the transport costs no one factors in? If propane weighed a tenth as much as an equivalent of coal, the savings in transport would make up for the costs of production in a lot of cases.

Edit: Sorry...I can get excited after the second time people totally disregard my point...

[Solfius]

I disagree. While we may simplify processes, I believe that the quantities should reflect RL where known

Sorry, my googling couldn't find any refernce to amounts of ingredients required.

[The Industriallist]

Sorry, my googling couldn't find any refernce to amounts of ingredients required.

Well, my source was a chemistry textbook.

Here's one I turned up:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/iron3.htm

This one give wildly different numbers...I think it must have an error, since ores just don't have that much iron in them.
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/steel_mill.html

Of course, you'll notice that these are for blast furnaces...there's not much in the way of information about older iron-smelting methods. Though it seems fairly likely that they didn't involve limestone at all, I don't know.

[Solfius]

According to the links the limestone helps remove more impurities and results in more iron, so it could be possible.

Good searching btw, I just got a load of useless stuff

[Revanael]

CD MESSAGE:

Could whoever moved this PM me?
(Revanael)

[Anthony Roberts]

I'm here, I'm here. This thread was JUST brought to my attention, I seriously had no idea it existed else I would have jumped in earlier, before you all bit off everyone elses head.

If you want to get mad over Propane, get mad at me, as I am the one that had implemented months prior. Industriallist, as always, brings up the most interesting points (And the correct answers) to the questions you ask. Although at times I disagree with what he states, he obviously knows what he is talking about. Therefore, his answer is my answer.

Let me throw some quick numbers out here.

When smelting Iron, you need 20 grams of Propane, where you would need 60 grams of Coal. That means you would need 66.6~% less in resource baggage.

Coal can be harvested at 250 grams per day, whereas Gas can be harvested at 100 grams per day, and propane manufactured at 75 grams per day.

So, then, in two days, you could have 75 grams of Propane, or 500 grams of Coal, to produce each 3.75 units (Not grams, units. As in, a batch) of Iron, from Propane, or 8.3~ units of Iron from Coal.

At the moment, yes, Propane seems worthless. The amount of time to get enough propane outweighs the fact that coal is easier to acquire, and produces more for the amount you can gather.

To reenforce the point, in the entire game world, there are 20 more locations containing coal than propane (For example, there are 30 locations with propane, and 50 locations with coal).

Now, you're all wondering, am I on coal's side? No, as this is the kicker.

Within the game world, although gas is less in quantity, it is found in more densly populated areas AND is much more readily available. Therefore, in time, there will end up being more gas and propane in the game world than there is coal. This is calculated due to the fact that gas is only used in ONE project, whereas coal is used in 30 different projects. Coal is more univeral, and gas/propane is not.

So, a character may end up having 75 grams of Propane, and 500 grams of Coal, in two days, BUT that coal will be better suited being used in other tasks, where Propane is specific for smelting purposes only. Also due to the fact that propane is more readily available to densly populated areas, it becomes useful to them, whereas a trip for coal would far outweigh its numerous benifits.

Now, I'm sure you'd all want to fight that, although the benifits are slim, to give Propane more purpose due to the strain of having to acquire it is. If you want, changes can be made, that's why we accept suggestions. Just, stop being so snappy. If you want an answer, ask, don't demand. And be patient, too, please. We can't make miracles, only happy Cantarians (When possible, anyway. There are too many of ya, and you all have different tastes!).

So, what do you suggest should be done? Increase the amount of coal needed? Increase the amount of gas you can harvest? Increase the amount of Propane you receive from purification? Decreasing the amount of propane needed wouldn't be plausable, as it's at 20 grams, which is fairly low, but still a possible solution? Or, leave it all alone, because you all know I'm right?

[Edit]: And just to add, propane needed coal to be purified, that is oddly incorrect. Yes, it asks for coal, but that really should be wood. My bad, I'll have this changed. Because, you know, what the hell, just use coal. Is THIS why you were all getting all snappy? Because if that's the case, it very much makes sense! Whoops. I've changed it.

[The Sociologist]

Within the game world, although gas is less in quantity, it is found in more densly populated areas AND is much more readily available. Therefore, in time, there will end up being more gas and propane in the game world than there is coal. This is calculated due to the fact that gas is only used in ONE project, whereas coal is used in 30 different projects. Coal is more univeral, and gas/propane is not.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the basis of this at all. What areas are you talking about? I know there are significant stockpiles of coal in Seatown Forest, which certainly qualifies as a "densely populated area". But so far, only one of my characters has ever seen propane, and that was 100 grams.

Also due to the fact that propane is more readily available to densly populated areas, it becomes useful to them, whereas a trip for coal would far outweigh its numerous benifits.

Could you perhaps give us an example? Siom is closer to coal than to gas, so is Allenz hills, the KDF region, Baaak... The only possible exception I've encountered is Dory, and Dory is frankly not all that big.

We can't make miracles, only happy Cantarians (When possible, anyway. There are too many of ya, and you all have different tastes!).

I would say, some happy Cantrians would be made by going back to what it was before. The rest couldn't give a damn because they live in "densely populated regions" right next to the coal!

And just to add, propane needed coal to be purified, that is oddly incorrect. Yes, it asks for coal, but that really should be wood. My bad, I'll have this changed. Because, you know, what the hell, just use coal. Is THIS why you were all getting all snappy? Because if that's the case, it very much makes sense! Whoops. I've changed it.

Well, that's a start. Thanks.

By the way, some of us do take the game quite seriously, you know.

[Bowser]

Is coal used in the production of refined propane? If so, using coal to make refined propane, a less efficient fuel for smelting would be a waste of time and resources. If coal is not used in making propane, then disreguard this post.

[rklenseth]

Within the game world, although gas is less in quantity, it is found in more densly populated areas AND is much more readily available. Therefore, in time, there will end up being more gas and propane in the game world than there is coal. This is calculated due to the fact that gas is only used in ONE project, whereas coal is used in 30 different projects. Coal is more univeral, and gas/propane is not.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the basis of this at all. What areas are you talking about? I know there are significant stockpiles of coal in Seatown Forest, which certainly qualifies as a "densely populated area". But so far, only one of my characters has ever seen propane, and that was 100 grams.

Also due to the fact that propane is more readily available to densly populated areas, it becomes useful to them, whereas a trip for coal would far outweigh its numerous benifits.

Could you perhaps give us an example? Siom is closer to coal than to gas, so is Allenz hills, the KDF region, Baaak... The only possible exception I've encountered is Dory, and Dory is frankly not all that big.

We can't make miracles, only happy Cantarians (When possible, anyway. There are too many of ya, and you all have different tastes!).

I would say, some happy Cantrians would be made by going back to what it was before. The rest couldn't give a damn because they live in "densely populated regions" right next to the coal!

And just to add, propane needed coal to be purified, that is oddly incorrect. Yes, it asks for coal, but that really should be wood. My bad, I'll have this changed. Because, you know, what the hell, just use coal. Is THIS why you were all getting all snappy? Because if that's the case, it very much makes sense! Whoops. I've changed it.

Well, that's a start. Thanks.

By the way, some of us do take the game quite seriously, you know.

I think the point that Anthony was trying to make is that you can use propane in place of coal since there are many other things that coal can be used for. Now that Anthony fixed propane so that you use wood instead of coal then this shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Also, a lot of places grew up around the many materials needed for making iron and steel. So that is one reason why densely populated areas seem to be around these resources more often these days since spawns spawn in populated areas rather than areas that aren't so much. Back in the day, people spawned at set spawn points. Gas is out there, you just have to find it.

[Missy]

Well Propane is beneficial to an area that isn't near coal. They'd still need coal for other things, but they have a choice to make propane or travel the extra length of time for the coal. At least that's what Im getting from this.


It's like, places with wood, COULD be better off making charcoal for their iron process rather than using coal.

[The Industriallist]

Well Propane is beneficial to an area that isn't near coal. They'd still need coal for other things, but they have a choice to make propane or travel the extra length of time for the coal. At least that's what Im getting from this.

Well, until a few hours ago (if he fixed it that fast) you had to go get the coal anyway, plus collect gas, plus use a gas purifier on both of them...(assuming you insist on doing all processing in one place.)

I never saw the numbers, so maybe you used less total coal that way. And of course, you could benefit from the light weight if you made the propane closer to the coal source.

Now that it uses wood instead...I don't know anything at all.

[Surly]

Right, so now propane requires wood. That just screws over my character more, because he has more coal than wood...

Anyway, more relevantly, I'll put the changed values into my equations and see if this makes it anymore efficient...
Current iron production per day, using coal: 27.74
Old iron production per day, using propane (produced with coal): 25.37
Current iron production per day, using propane (produced with wood): 25.16

What?

It's even less efficient for the resources put in now! God damn it!

You can produce 117.8g of iron per days worth of propane. You can produce 208.33g using a days worth of coal. It is still heavily weighted against the production and use of propane. Is that deliberate?

Oh, and Anthony, is there an answer to my question: Why the devaluation of propane? I appreciate the effort put into answering this topic already, but could you answer my original question?

[Anthony Roberts]

Right, so now propane requires wood. That just screws over my character more, because he has more coal than wood...

So? Use your Coal to smelt Iron, and use that wood you have to purify the propane. If anything, you're benifiting, so shh! Don't tell anyone.

Now, as for balancing this out, it's obvious that's what you want done. Tell me, what values do you think would be perferred? Not that I'll use them or anything *Snicker*, I just want to know where you're getting these calculations from. You must realise, that, you can't make all calculations from numbers and gathering quantities. There is distance, supply and demand, and all these other economical things to balance out (Whatever they may be, I really don't know or remember >.>).

As for your question, "Why the devaluation of propane?", I can answer that if you can elaborate on that. By devaluation, you're asking why propane is worse than coal or something? I'm just not quite understanding.