Governments

[Lumera]

I hope they don't make the Quii mandatory, that would just make things too complicated. I can understand businesses using it, and since I'm new I actually like having a note there that tells you straight out how much one resource is worth when compared to other resources, but I wouldn't like being forced into using them. A private trade is a private trade. I don't see any reason to drag the government and the bank into it. Of course a bureaucracy might be an interesting form of government to try, but I don't think it'd be very fun and I probably wouldn't stick around too long.

I feel the same way about permits to gather resources. The reason something like that makes sense in real life is because there's a limited number of resources and a limited number of space, neither or which exist in Cantr at the moment.

Now I could see paying for a hunting license, because there's only so many animals around at a time, but requiring permission for anything else is ridiculous; I know governments like that exist, but I always wonder how a system like that could develop in Cantr. It'd be like charging people to breathe air.

What would really stimulate the economy, not to mention trigger a few wars and on the whole make things *very* interesting is if certain resources could be used up, if food was harder to get, (maybe players would have to "build" a field that could hold a certain amount of crops instead of growing everything right smack in the middle of the town square) going without food had more consequences, and maybe the item degradation idea that I saw mentioned in another thread. Those are all things that drive economies in real life.

The problem I see with Cantr is that there's nothing characters really *need*. Sure, most people might like to have some weapons or some clothes or different foods, but it's an awful lot of trouble to get them, and why bother when you can just stand there in your starting location and watch magical potatoes grow while idly chatting with you neighbors about the complete lack of weather.

...and okay, cities in Cantr aren't usually that boring, but my point is that that's probably why most governments don't do anything but make sure people don't get murdered and their stuff doesn't get stolen; and the latter's actually pretty unnecessary if you're just talking about survival.

Interesting stuff does happen, but let's be honest; most of the wars and political intrigue and all that are imported from the real world, and probably would have never developed in a place like Cantr. When there's no need for anything that's not easily obtainable, no haves and have-nots, no real struggle to survive or adapt, then there's nothing there to trigger social change. (or economic change or political change, etc.)

And yeah, I'm rambling way off-topic here. I do that sometimes.

[The Industriallist]

Actually, that was great until right near the end. There is one thing driving wars and intregue. Economic pressures aren't well modeled in cantr, but lust for power comes through very clearly. I mean sure the Lad attacks, for example, had no practical motivation in a basic sense. But in context of rulers of Lad who saw their dominions spreading accross the continent...it made sense.

And banditry certainly would if it didn't require some setup work. After all, it's easier and more fun to get things by force than by work. You just need to actually have the force. (#@(& messed up steel distribution)

[Pulpcatcher]

Moderately well paid peons? I think that's a little unfair. The people in SHS have paid employment and what they do with their salaries is up to them. Admittedly it is a very government orientated economy: after all only a government would pay someone for the sake of it as the SHS State does. The major difficulty encountered is in trying to convince people to use the iron currency to buy things. Everyone seems to have the habit of hoarding every gram of iron available. The success of the state there can be measured by the fact that they have such useless resources yet they’re getting to the stage of being able to make anything.

Sadly for me, the Qui is a sham. I’d love to see it work but it relies too much on peoples’ goodwill. Last time my character used the bank there he could deposit any item – iron, steel whatever, but the only things he could withdraw were the likes of potatoes and stone. I think the problem with that speaks for itself.

[The Industriallist]

I did some calculations regarding the rate at which iron can be created, assuming zero travel time.

No Tools: 27.75g/day
Tools: 33.41g/day
Machines: 36g/day

SHS has lousy local resources, but it borders on the most utterly unbalanced piece of geography the cantr gods ever made. Their situation for making iron would be the envy of the vast majority of population centers. The entire KDS region is worse off, for example.

With the transport times they must get, 40g of iron for a year of labor is not an overly generous payment. And if the government actually is paying them that much, I certainly hope it's using them to fetch resources and smelt iron, rather than just burning through some limited supply. "Moderately well paid peons" is the only positive view open. Any other interpretation says that the government is burying itself.

As for buying things with iron, why would people do that? Once they have iron they can make what they want...what's for sale that would be worth buying instead of making an iron shield?

They've created an economy based on a single producer/provider organization. That doesn't promote trade of any kind. Which may be fine. But I still don't see any actual trade-based economies anywhere, and that's just an example of why.

And about the Qui...the Bank will sell you Qui for most any good, but they aren't interested in selling them back. That doesn't make it a scam, exactly. It isn't really a viable currency if you can't use it to buy iron from someone, though.

[The Sociologist]

Currency doesn't have to be backed by resources. US currency is backed by debt rather than resources though it used to be backed by gold.
But what really gives currency a value is society's preceived worth of that currency. It doesn't need to be backed up by anything if society believes in its worth.

I'm afraid that's too modern a concept for Cantr. "Monetarism" is simply not possible in so undeveloped an economy. Throughout most of history, currencies have been coinage.

So if someone in Quillanoi believes that a Qui is worth 800 grams of potatoes then that is all that is needed.
As Nick said, the main problem is that people can farm their own potatoes or dig their own stone [...] That is why Easle Quathak wanted to institute laws that would make it illegal to farm for potatoes or dig for stone without having a special permit as well as make it illegal to trade in raw resources.

Your problem remains things like potato harvesters in nearby territories, a situation analogous to the "silver inflation" in Europe when the new-world silver mines were discovered and exploited by Spain to finance its various dynastic wars.

The only barrier to having the Quii accepted is making society accept its value.

Like I said, the barrier to the Quii is the potato harvester and the danger of inflation. Your currency needs to be at least moderately desired but above all not easy to make. Possibilities would be silk or cotton cloth, maybe even gold. Iron is a possibility, but then you have to release enough of it.

In America, a Euro is worthless. You can't go to a store and use it to pay for anything. But the Euro is backed as well as accepted in most of Europe but the thing is that Americans and American businesses don't accept the value of the Euro which is Europe is worth more than the American dollar.

No no, quite wrong. You can always go to a forex place and exchange them for dollars; then you will find them decidedly valuable indeed, given the state of the dollar. In my country dollars would, by your reasoning, be equally worthless since legislation precludes shops from accepting them. But then you can always head off to a forex place here too... and will find dollars worth a lot less than they used to be.

Those values are determined by international trading in currencies as commodities. Currently the value of the dollar is backed by the fact that oil-importing countries need it to buy oil from most oil producers. Exceptions were Iraq under Saddam and now, to a degree, Venezuela. Interesting, eh?
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[Pulpcatcher]

Yes, that's the problem with iron as a currency - it's an end in itself. I wonder if we'll ever see anywhere using a resource like gold or silver as a currency. Provided you could control the amounts in circulation it might be possible to use it to trade with. Obviously it all comes down to peoples' confidence in its value though.

[The Industriallist]

Well, iron would work as a currency if businesses existed that gave people better value for their iron than the iron itself. But most businesses offer next to nothing to their customers, accross cantr. I mean, now you could conceivably sell recurve or composite bows for iron, say. They require a big investment to produce, so it's actually easier for someone to buy than to make themselves. You could sell wood, since it has to be imported. You could sell steel weapons and implements, especially the ones that take lots of tools to make, though they'd be very pricy. But what do we get? Stone shops. Shops that sell food. These are not things you need to buy, because you can get them yourself just as easily, as a rule.

Of course, in most places most people wouldn't buy things with iron except at extremely favorable prices because they can't get more without a lot of work. But if you're payed in it, they just need to balance price with cost of doing the job youself.

[The Industriallist]

The thing about gold or silver is that they only have a little more inherent value than unbacked paper. Demand for them for anything is very rare. Though I imagine that when it exists you could get a good price for them.

[The Sociologist]

The thing about gold or silver is that they only have a little more inherent value than unbacked paper. Demand for them for anything is very rare. Though I imagine that when it exists you could get a good price for them.

This relates to my Conspicuous Consumption thread yet again, doesn't it? I've noticed that employees of MWS Inc tend to be very well dressed when they leave the Forest to trade, probably because they are paid in clothing. Along the way this doubtless creates at least some little added demand for such items, which is often what they carry to trade. And MWS itself uses silk cloth as a kind of currency. One could imagine the same principle operating in respect of gold, silver and diamonds, which are after all used in jewelry. Or glass beads, for that matter, if its raw material was under goverment control and the next nearest source far enough away.

But the whole point of my CC suggestion thread is that such demand will flourish that much better the more visible the consumption of such items is.
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[Nick]

Most people just never bother looking around Quillanoi for deals.
OF COURSE theres nothing to get at the bank, who goes shopping at the bank?
In about a year worth of work, instead of getting a measly 40g iron, I earned myself a dung fork.
You can buy clothes, buy/rent tools, buy/rent buildings, hire employees, etc.
Its a thick beurocracy... learn to use the system and the system will help you.

[Lumera]

What are all these regions you guys keep mentioning? SHS and KDS?

[trage]

KDS is the Krif-Djorf-Seatown Region and and SHS may be Sjoftich Hills South, *shrug* I don't know that one.

[joshua johnson]

I have thought for a long time that the Quii is strange. There are no currencies in the world that are based on food products, and no currencies based on rocks.

I have a better idea on how to do it, but I won't share it here since the current government is unlikely to like a change that would destabilize and devalue what they have right now.

Right now, it is impossible to establish a business because you have to dig potatoes all day just to afford two minimum wage employees.

[Lumera]

Oh, come on, share it! It's not like anyone can use info from the forum ingame anyway, right?

[Nick]

Right now, it is impossible to establish a business because you have to dig potatoes all day just to afford two minimum wage employees.

If you have no revenue besides one person farming potatoes without a tool... If your business does something, you should also profit.