Less than real life, but far more than a game.

[computaertist]

If play a pirate or dictator or madman killing is pretty much essentially

Pirate = obviously greedy. I get that story. And if played well there might even be more to it than that.

Dictator = obviously power hungry. I get that story. And if played well there might easily be more to it than that.

Madman is trickier. I hope you play it well enough so that we can get that story.

[Uma]

I'm on board with "it's just a game" but I think this is a game about society emulation and resource exchange, not body count. I agree with earlier sentiments that even if you have a good reason, or it enriches the world, you still take something away from the world and from players when you kill characters. it seems random, it seems unfair, it makes them feel bad about it. it doesn't feel like part of the story.

As such I REALLY think there should be a toll for killing. some factor that makes it 'takes something out of you' to kill, so you do it for meaningful reasons, not to create a boogy man and garner attention from others about it.

and on the sociopath thing, i know they're charming, but after talking with them a little while, I tend to get a feel for some one. and there are several people i've met and known that I could tell they did not care. I could see past their charm and politeness and know that were it not for societal rules, they would do what they wanted. Now admittedly that did take time to come to that conclusion, but our cantrites are ver perceptive, we can look at a glance and tell exactly how injured some one is, exactly how hungry or tired they are. we all carry an encyclopedic knowledge of how to make everything in the world in our heads and we're free to look however we want.

So I'm okay with a little 'doesn't make sense' to achieve the kind of game I like, A society simulator based on interactions more than using the more gimmicky game mechanics to heap up a pile of bodies and run away every time.

[Optimus Christ]

I'm on board with "it's just a game" but I think this is a game about society emulation and resource exchange, not body count. I agree with earlier sentiments that even if you have a good reason, or it enriches the world, you still take something away from the world and from players when you kill characters. it seems random, it seems unfair, it makes them feel bad about it. it doesn't feel like part of the story.

As such I REALLY think there should be a toll for killing. some factor that makes it 'takes something out of you' to kill, so you do it for meaningful reasons, not to create a boogy man and garner attention from others about it.

unfortunately there was a char i had to kill, and it takes a toll on him daily, his entire views have changed. He didn't want to do it, but essentially had no choice due to the fact that he would not stop attacking my char. he has to live with it everyday and it affects him like no other to a point where he would stray away from relationships, personal or otherwise for fear of hurting them. so i think its a good idea on what you said there.

[Xander]

Reading this thread, I agree with a lot of what people have said here. Doug mentioned that there is a necessity for unfairness in a game like Cantr, and I certainly agree. Part of my inability to get over the death of one of my characters was the unfairness of the situation he found himself in in his last decade or so of life, which was started off by the unfair death of another character. This was before NDS, when hitting people to drag them sometimes resulted in an unintended and often unwanted death. He was already in what he perceived to be an unfair situation before the incident.

During his last years, he wrote a lot of notes, full of anger and sadness, and although he did things that only make the situation worse for himself, he felt that the situation was unfair. When he died, the character who killed him gave their reasons, and some of them were unfair too, as some of the things were things he had no control over. It could even be said that it was unfair to that character that they were forced to kill mine.

My preference is to see this as just a game, just something to play, to roleplay with others and to enjoy the world of Cantr. It was awful to feel addiction to negative emotions experienced by my character, and it was awful to be emotionally attached to my character. Although I really like my current characters, I can't say that any of their deaths would affect me for long, even though I would miss the RP and the characters that my own characters know. If others want to see it as more of a game, that's fine, but I don't feel that I can see as more.

[danizappa]

"putting up stronger walls and accepting unfairness as a necessary part of the Cantr experience" sounds like a too low of an expectation.

[Wolfsong]

2 cents:

If you want to quit, just quit. Don't try to hold the feelings of the other players hostage by making a big long post about everything and rehashing the same angst over and over. It's a game. Bad things happen to imaginary characters, and if you take them too personally, you should probably take a step back and reassess your level of involvement in the game. Just because you are way too involved in the game doesn't mean it should become candy and puppies for everyone else, too. Play styles, like opinions, differ. Some people enjoy conflict, as conflict is the root of all interaction. And if you can't realize that it is actually a game, you should definitely take one very large step back. Nobody really blames you, or cares, if you quit because ultimately what's at stake here is your mental health, and that's pretty important.

[Black Canyon]

2 cents:

If you want to quit, just quit. Don't try to hold the feelings of the other players hostage by making a big long post about everything and rehashing the same angst over and over. It's a game. Bad things happen to imaginary characters, and if you take them too personally, you should probably take a step back and reassess your level of involvement in the game. Just because you are way too involved in the game doesn't mean it should become candy and puppies for everyone else, too. Play styles, like opinions, differ. Some people enjoy conflict, as conflict is the root of all interaction. And if you can't realize that it is actually a game, you should definitely take one very large step back. Nobody really blames you, or cares, if you quit because ultimately what's at stake here is your mental health, and that's pretty important.

I might have tried to soften it up a bit, but I actually agree 100%.

[hyrle]

I'm still somewhere in the middle of the two extremes... I realize how easy it is to form emotional bonds with our characters, and to put our own emotions into those characters. Those who are able to do that seem to make the roleplay experience seem and feel very genuine. I've actually felt RL emotions over some of the letters my characters have written or things my characters expressed... and feeding those emotions back into those characters makes it all the more genuine. I - thankfully - have only experienced the death of one character, and that was before he really got going.

However, there is also a need to maintain some emotional detachment as well, because bad things can and do happen to our characters. In the time I've played this game, I've had bad things happen to my characters (none died), but it has given them interesting stories. And... in the end, that's really what Cantr 2 is at its very core... a dynamic story that we all write together, and a dynamic world we basically build together.

[computaertist]

2 cents:

If you want to quit, just quit. Don't try to hold the feelings of the other players hostage by making a big long post about everything and rehashing the same angst over and over. It's a game. Bad things happen to imaginary characters, and if you take them too personally, you should probably take a step back and reassess your level of involvement in the game. Just because you are way too involved in the game doesn't mean it should become candy and puppies for everyone else, too. Play styles, like opinions, differ. Some people enjoy conflict, as conflict is the root of all interaction. And if you can't realize that it is actually a game, you should definitely take one very large step back. Nobody really blames you, or cares, if you quit because ultimately what's at stake here is your mental health, and that's pretty important.

I might have tried to soften it up a bit, but I actually agree 100%.

I'm sorry for any attempted hostage situation.

I was trying to figure out how right or wrong I was about whether I was wasting my time and energy here. Turns out I'm not since you two and those agreeing with you aren't representative of the whole Cantr player population. And being thankfully wrong about who was playing as I was, I was also giving some voice to those who disagree, who don't post comparatively much until they're leaving from what I've seen.

It won't happen from me again, but it's happened before and I doubt mine will be the last time unless some appropriate warning concerning this kind of thing happening is added to the advertisements for this game.

[SumBum]

A lot of people, from all sides of an argument, don't voice their opinions on the forum. I've stayed silent on this thread up til now because I couldn't come up with a "nice, fluffy" way of wording my thoughts. Not to mention I expected the response to be "well, you're just a violence/rape/theft-loving bully, SumBum."

I have played thieves and violent chars. Sue me. It's nerve-wracking, nail-biting...but *gasp* fun. I've also played the friendly, generous, helpful, anti-violence, law-abiding citizens. That's the beauty of Cantr - you can experience a lot of different things!

In many years of playing, I've never had a char raped. I know it seems to be a common thing, but I'm not so sure. I've had chars that were killed before I was ready for them to die. I've had chars I don't want to lose put in risky situations by other players. I went through 2-3 days of Stress and not being able to eat because of someone else's char getting killed (mine survived but I was ILL over the death of the other player's char). Did I once think of walking away or rage-quitting? Not even for an instant.

Yes, I'm attached to certain chars (a lot of the ones I'm attached to aren't even played by me) and will mourn when they die, regardless of HOW they die. It's just like anything in life, though. If you don't want to experience loss then you have to give up all the joy that others bring. I'd rather play Cantr, enjoy the interactions and, yes, suffer some loss now and then.

As others have said, you need to determine what is healthiest for YOU. Will getting a lot of praise for your chars and people asking you not to quit be enough to make this game enjoyable for you? The decision to play should not be based on what others think or want from you. I must not be a very good RPer because I know if I quit, everyone else would carry on just fine in-game.

If you want to keep playing without as much risk of encountering violence, then take measures to prevent it. You wouldn't walk around a big city in the middle of the night with a wad of cash on display. Move your chars to places where "bad stuff" is less likely to happen. I'm sure there are ways to skew things ICly to make it work.

[computaertist]

I'm very glad you made that post SumBum
I think that's the most interesting combination of feelings exactly like mine yet different from mine I've read yet, and I would guess based on it that I'm glad for what you contribute to the game.

[Uma]

my opinion on the subject isn't really related to character attachment. I have had some characters I dearly wish I could still play, but I don't think it's bad that they'd died.

For me it's a simple matter of not wanting the game to become more combat, conquest, random attacking, and gimmicky game mechanics to kill people...than it is. I love that cantr is a slow game, built on social interaction, society building, and trade. When one player (or a few) can show up, crossbow some one, drag them into a vehicle all in a short amount of time., then force them to starve out (or murder them)...something is a little wrong with things.

I'm not so much concerned about the character motives or development, just that the game could turn into another kind of game if that's the norm.

[LittleSoul]

Combat is only weird because there are those specific limitations on it in the first place. Those strategies were made to work with the fact that there's no armor, people have keys, and that you can only hit once a day.

If you want a different combat system, I advise thinking one up and actually suggesting it as an alternative.

If you don't want a combat system at all then I suggest picking a game that isn't a society simulator, since the reason civilized society exists at all is to control and mediate conflict with law, and other cultural/ethical 'rules', such as religion, the concept of ethics, etc. To take away combat means to take away reasons to make a lot of other cool things that don't have anything to do with hurting people. Yeah, you'll have trade, and everyone will be happy - great. Sounds boring.

The great thing about Cantr is that you can have both; your character can have a life of rainbows and flowers if you want that kind of play, where conflict rarely occurs, but usually at a compromise of some freedoms, or you can have exciting, fun, dramatic, stressful conflict at the cost and risk of losing your character or seeing them/other people get hurt.

It's all about where your character is, and who they are surrounded by. It makes all the difference in terms of what kind of Cantr you see.

[Marian]

The great thing about Cantr is that you can have both; your character can have a life of rainbows and flowers if you want that kind of play, where conflict rarely occurs, but usually at a compromise of some freedoms, or you can have exciting, fun, dramatic, stressful conflict at the cost and risk of losing your character or seeing them/other people get hurt.

The not so great thing about Cantr is that you don't really have a choice in the matter, though...you can be living your stress-free life of rainbows and flowers or doing your part to build up your community when suddenly you're locked up and slaughtered with no way to fight back, often with no other reason than someone getting bored with their character's life and decided to end yours.

There's an astonishingly high percentage of characters in this game that are either born sociopaths, or at least ready to lose their minds and go on a killing spree at the drop of a hat. Everything I read in the OP, I understand and empathize with completely because I've felt the same way numerous times and just in general get too involved with my characters. When I'm RPing a character, I'm not just RPing, I'm completely in their head and feeling everything they feel. And I don't like to generalize, but a lot of times I think the people playing the pirates and killers just don't see it that way themselves at all. I had a character that was made into a slave once, and a player contacted me on the forum to tell me all about how they were going to rape them soon...most of their characters I was aware of were psychotic in some way and this was all a big joke to them, while meanwhile the stress of the situation even before the idea of rape came into the picture had me literally shaking in real life.

Cantr is amazing and addictive like nothing else, but it can be flat out exhausting and emotionally draining to play sometimes. Even when it's not a life or death situation...my character can be all knotted up inside from rejection or just dealing with day to day stress (there always seems to be those characters that exist for no other reason than to tear relationships apart and prevent progress and cause constant drama...) and suddenly it becomes really difficult to get home from a not-so-great-day at work and then shoulder their problems too.

But back on the topic of actual psychos...I play thieves a lot, they're probably my second favorite type of character and always lots of fun. Whether they get caught or get away with it, I love the excitement and tension...but I could never bring myself to play a cold-blooded killer. Partly for OOC reasons I guess...I don't see how it adds anything to the game or 'stirs things up' to deny people the characters they've invested so much in, or destroy a functioning town when there's so few around. Every character has their own life and story, and I don't understand why so many people seem to get off on abruptly cutting those stories short right in the middle with zero chance for RP or closure. Have a little respect for others and their right to enjoy the game too instead of taking a big shit right in the middle of the playground just because you can, is all I'm saying. :/

[Uma]

I just wish their was a defense against the stab-drag-vehicle-murder beyond retribution-when-discovered. town guards should be able to be town guards and intercede that way they stab some one, then a guard steps up to prevent the dragging. anything that makes abductions a little tougher.

I'd be interested to see stats for deaths. Non starvation non suicide deaths if they are 1. in buildings 2. in vehicles 3. on the road. or 4. in town.

I bet the vast majority are in buildings and vehicles (behind locks) with crazy newbies filling in the 'on the road' kills