Foreign Influences in English Language

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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catpurr
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Postby catpurr » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:40 am

Dudel wrote:The CRB also does not say that you can't understand Dutch because you understand German. If the languages are similar then even in reality people could be able to kinda communicate.


Being one who actually can speak both I have my problems to make a fair guess what I would have understood if I didn't knew netherlands.

My only problem with multilingual characters is it fucks up the spawning system. That's my only problem with them.


I don't undertand how multilingual chars should fuck up the spawning system. Just make sure you can speak the language you spawned with. So whatever newbie spawns, he sure has 2 people in this location who can speak its language.

So even the most radical one, german char spawns in an english most language, and player decides to roleplay that this char also understands the lingua france english in cantr. Now someplace else a new german char spawns and says "Hallo ihr alle". Well at least 2 german native speakers must be there. (or traveled away shortly but thats the spawning system)
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SekoETC
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Postby SekoETC » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:39 pm

But the thing is, the spawning parents may be sleepers or they may have only been there when the "census" happened to record how many members of a language group were present and have moved on after that.

I often allow my characters to understand things if I as a player can guess what is being said either based on similarity of languages (for example Dutch and English) or having learned to recognize common words since they're often said on TV (Spanish) but in speaking it's better not to use words you haven't learned from in-game dictionaries or heard being used.

It is more challenging not to use OOC knowledge but you know it would make things unfair for others if people were allowed to pick up a language just like that with no need to study. For example once my character heard two Swedish guys discussing whether they should kill everybody in that location, and they were doing it in the open since they knew all the others were English. I had to tell one of them OOC "thanks a lot for ruining my day" and he was like "huh?" It was a bit childish but it's annoying when you understand OOC that your character is in danger but can do nothing to protect them or warn the others. Well, the people ended up not trying a massacre after all but it's quite outrageous that they would discuss it in public just like that.
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Andu
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Postby Andu » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:16 pm

So you have a descent swedish then? Have you any swedish chars?

And I am myself a trilingual person (if we count english), so I know the problem there.
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SekoETC
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Postby SekoETC » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:46 pm

Yeah, although I tend to look up a lot of words in dictionaries just to make sure I got it right. I have one Swedish character but he left his home island very long ago since it didn't have all the resources for making iron, and now he's very far away from there. He's been planning to go back but he'd like to draw a map of all the places he's been to, and that requires checking my turn reports for how many hours he has sailed in which direction and there are hundreds to go through.
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catpurr
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Postby catpurr » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:19 pm

SekoETC wrote:But the thing is, the spawning parents may be sleepers or they may have only been there when the "census" happened


In that regard it doesnt matter if they speaking more than the language they spawned in.
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Dudel
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Postby Dudel » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:19 pm

Gran, no annoyance here. I say have at whatever it is you wish to "have at". Words is words, man.


Catpurr.... you OBVIOUSLY are a multi lingual player who doesn't pay or care to pay attention.

Lets put the moderately recent "problem" that happened in Dory.

A ship came by and docked to the town that was Polish. There were two people in it that mostly spoke English. Then after a RL day some random Polish person pops up talking Polish. If this character then decides to start talking English also... we get a problem.

Soon the town is over run by Polish and it is no longer an English spawning location, yet everyone there speaks English. Eventually the whole town will opt against using English and anyone on that one island who "travels" to Dory will have a problem.

That, my friend, is fucking up the spawning system. Polish ain't supposed to spawn on the English island(s). And when they do, its bloody irritating as most just wanna get aggro cause no one bothers to RP with them... cause most just get aggro.

Lets take another example, the Russians. From what I hear there spawns are little to none as it is. So if another language group over runs their towns, or whatever (if they've not already), the chance of spawning near a bunch of "other people too" is annoyingly high. So, unless you, as the player, know Russian as only a second language, it makes that language not appealing to spawn in.
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Sabsi
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Postby Sabsi » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:21 pm

The depicted situation with one language group overrunning towns of another, spawning near people of other language groups and almost not being able to go anywhere without meeting people who speak other languages is exactly what we have on the Spanish/German/Dutch island and which was predetermined from the beginning because the set spawning points (at least for Spanish and German characters) were on the same island when there still were set spawning points. If this is annoying, why was it set that way? If Polish really aren't supposed to spawn on English islands, why are Spanish and German supposed to spawn on the same island?

(Oh, and just to avoid misunderstandings here: I'm not trying to say that it would be good for a newspawn to talk in any other language than the one the player chose when creating the character. I just wanted to point out that some language groups have to bear with this annoyance nevertheless.)
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Postby Rebma » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:26 pm

Dudel wrote:Catpurr.... you OBVIOUSLY are a multi lingual player who doesn't pay or care to pay attention.


I agree. We're to play our characters in the language that we chose for them to spawn in. Because if you haven't noticed, people who spawn and like in dudel's situation realise they're the only one and start talking the other language, get a lovely message from PD about rule breaking. Same with those who decide they can speak however many when they spawn, regardless of what language they selected.

If Jos wanted multi-lingual spawns from the get go, he would have coded for it. As it stands, you can't have multi-lingual spawns. Get over it.
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notsure
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Postby notsure » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:15 pm

Why do you say Spanish/German/Dutch islands, Sabsi? Don't forget the French. The French are on the Dutch island, or should I say the Dutch are on the French island?
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Sabsi
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Postby Sabsi » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:22 pm

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore a group, but I haven't met any French characters on the island I'm talking about (the right one of the two), so I thought the French characters were only on the left island which was originally the spawning point for French and Dutch characters. As I haven't had a character on that island for a long time, I didn't want to take it as an example.
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Dudel
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Postby Dudel » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:39 pm

Dudel wrote:Soon the town is over run by Polish and it is no longer an English spawning location, yet everyone there speaks English. Eventually the whole town will opt against using English and anyone on that one island who "travels" to Dory will have a problem.

That, my friend, is fucking up the spawning system. Polish ain't supposed to spawn on the English island(s). And when they do, its bloody irritating as most just wanna get aggro cause no one bothers to RP with them... cause most just get aggro.


The bold part is the problem.

Its an "English town" but spawns Polish people.
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viktor
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Postby viktor » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:58 pm

yes there is quite a large grey area in terms of which words can and cant be called part of english. words from other languages get integrated much faster nowadays because of media and 'pop culture'
uber is a german word added to the english language within the past couple decades for example.
i live in canada, i wasnt in french immersion but i did take french class all through school, sometimes i end up speaking franglais but my english chars do avoid using hardcore french especially since they are in contact with english characters and have nver met a frenchman. a couple of my chars put forward the effort to learn spanish as it is becomming very prevalent on the greater english isles and they at least try to use a couple spanish phrases when speaking with them like a greeting or introduction. i do however also have a couple hardcore fascist chars, well one is and there are a couple that will not 'cater' to a multilingual society. i used to have one who was what you would refer to as a nazi in many ways, zeus darwin, anyone speaking anything that was not english earned a death sentence... also usually anyone he could drag single handedly earned a death sentence, all about roleplay.

but to avoid going off on a tangent, i do think that people should put an effort into using a majority of the language they spawned in and not completely convert over to a different language hiding as a member of a linguistic sleeper cell after 2 days.

i did have a german char once, i used a translator to get a clerer understanding of what was being said and i used it to translate the odd english word into german so i could complete my sentences, i may use it to translate spanish into english for chars of mine who are "better versed" in spanish with legitimate exposure and time.

there are some terms/expressions that are purely earth related have no historical reference in cantr but are firmly very firmly entrenched in language, "for christ sakes man get up!" jesus the great mesiah never existed in cantr, nor did the christian faith because he never was in cantr, but the expressions are very much a part of language in rl and have been for many hundreds of years, another one is "it's murphy's law" in cantr it's like "wtf?" but we understand in rl perfectly, and in italian "marone" the virgin mary never existed in cantr, heck she was made famous because of her son who also did not exist in cantr as previously mentioned but at least on sopranos in rl you hear it used frenquently in language, there are numerous words within language itself that are very much a part of every day speech and lingo and have been much longer than a great number of earth's countries, but could be referred to as questionable in usage in cantr because they have a historic rl connection that did not exist in game, and carl marx never founded marxism in cantr but alas marxism is mentioned in the game, i do not know how it came about, did someone in game with the last name marx come up with it?
Last edited by viktor on Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Piscator
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Postby Piscator » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:15 pm

viktor wrote:uber is a german word added to the english language


If you ignore that you spell it differently, pronounce it differently and use it differently, it is. :lol:
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Idriveayugo
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Postby Idriveayugo » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:40 pm

Screw it. Let's start warning players they can't "RP" learning english or any of that stuff cuz they really don't rp it well. They can only speak their one language and that's that. If they get caught speaking two languages, they get their account frozen for a week.
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Dudel
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Postby Dudel » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:51 pm

Idriveayugo wrote:Screw it. Let's start warning players they can't "RP" learning english or any of that stuff cuz they really don't rp it well. They can only speak their one language and that's that. If they get caught speaking two languages, they get their account frozen for a week.


:lol:

That is how I solve problems! No clear answer you say? Screw'em all I say! XD Purist monolingual or DEATH!


I also agree with the subtext of this message. Which should be something like "This conversation is stupid".

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