Foreigners

[jexter]

sorry sanchez, I couldn't thought you are a lady with all that avatar and... sorry again for the mistake

Then again from the beginning: what's the point to pretend for three years that I don't know english, try to rp that I learning, and after three years (which is really a very short time) I can begin freely speak english?

Ok let's make it ten Cantr years of hard learning and let's then suppose my char learned the language.

Even in 10 real life years I and no one will ever learn a foreign language in Cantr to speak quite good and to say everything (or almost everything) he wants. If not mine suggestion then something else must be done. I understand that this is against the multi language idea of Cantr, and it is fun to try to interact with foreigners (yes, not all Lithuanian players are blood thirsty barbarians with no RP'ing ), but with the current rules even if I would live in a Portuguese town for 50 Cantr years I will still have lot's of communication problems and will never be "one" of them.

P.S. thank you for the kind words SekoETC

[Pilot]

I know it can be difficult to rp with someone in a language you don't know and it is worse when you are a newbie.

That happened to me and I could have let my charrie died when he was spawned in a dutch town and he was imprisoned for breaking the laws because he couldn't understand what was in the notes he saw on the ground.

Instead, I took it as a challenge and my charrie survived and learned dutch. It has taken me a lot of effort. I am still learning everyday and my charrie has very good dutch friends that have enriched my Cantr experience. This charrie now understands most of what the dutch say and even though it's hard for me to write sentences in dutch, I think they understand my charrie enough. The dutch have been very kind and when I don't understand something my charrie tells them so and the dutch charries explain in other way but still in dutch and never emoting in english. Since when this happened to me I didn't know emoting in english was ok, my charrie only emotes in spanish or in dutch.

After playing over a year now and with more experience in roleplaying (I've never played an online game before in my life) I can say I love the few chances I have to rp with foreigners. Not so long ago, one of my only spanish speaker charries traded with a polish charrie. We both emoted the process in english and it was fun and really easy.

With imagination and creativity there is nothing that can stop you.

The only thing I can say is that there is no hurry. Take your time and enjoy the process. Thanks to Cantr I've reinforced my german, I am learning dutch and the next I want to do is learn polish... not only the few words I already know but full sentences.

EDIT:

... but with the current rules even if I would live in a Portuguese town for 50 Cantr years I will still have lot's of communication problems and will never be "one" of them.

Yes you can. My charrie that lives among dutchs was not long ago asked to act as a translator for the spanish since he could speak spanish very good
The dutch man that told that hadn't realized my charrie is spanish because my charrie uses spanish language in very few ocasions.

[sanchez]

I agree with Alf. Jexter, what's the problem with learning languages in game? If you can't do it as a player, your chars can't do it either. That's natural. We are pretty lax in allowing people to make quick generalisations about grammar, especially for highly inflected languages like Polish and Lithuanian, but your chars should not magically know names of things they have never seen.
And why don't you use emotes instead? I have chars living in foreign lands who communicate only with actions, and get along fine. I have others who are learning Polish, a little Swedish, and have even tried Lithuanian. It's not that tough to communicate if you try. We don't allow you to import knowledge of anything else your chars have not encountered in game. Knowledge of language is no different. There is not a time limit after which you should be allowed to pretend you have learned something you have not. It's the same reason we do not allow you to spawn a char in a language zone you have no competence in. You may not spawn a Portuguese char if you only speak Lithuanian and English. No online translator is good enough for that, and if we allow you to speak Engish in whispers as a substitute, there is no integrity to the language zones to begin with.

[jexter]

Well I must drop my weapons and say that maybe you are right. I will try my hardest.

Again a question: for example can I say this in english for a foreigner: "shows some hemp in his hemp and points to some carrots on the ground". Can I use English in this case?

[sanchez]

Yes! You can describe actions in any language. That's exactly what we are asking you to do. But only to describe things that can be seen, not dialogue unless your chars learn it legitimately.

[jexter]

Thanks one more time for the explanation. It would be great if more Lithuanian people would try to interact with foreigners... I play for about 9 months - mostly active, with 15 chars and saw far less than I would like to see communication with foreigners, just many unprecedented killing, mostly of Portuguese chars (that's because by each other, if it would be another language people this would be the same). I guess there is nothing to do as to press on and on and try to teach Lithuanians better manners

Cheers

[sanchez]

My last encounter with Lithuanian chars was an ambush by pirates who indeed hit first. But after some time and effort, they were willing to emote and talk as well, and made it interesting. That battle ended without death, and probably with both sides feeling lucky.

[Mighty Mike]

Well, I hate to have to pick up the fight were jester drop his weapons but I can´t agreed whith you Sanchez and Alf. I think the rule is unfair, it difficults inter-language communities and it is even against the spirit of the game

It is unfair because its benefits some players over others, in 3 different ways, all of them concerning OOC ability’s


One this rule benefits, the by far, players who have a lot of time to play the game. I Love Cantr! I played almost very day for the past 2 years! I am good whith foreign tongues and speak 4 different ones. But I don´t have the time or peace mind to learn a completely foreign language in the game! And that isn’t even my objective. I play the game for fun and because of the role play not to learn Lithuanian. If I pick up some Lithuanian while I play, all the better, but to force me to learn it so I can play it well??!! Even if I had hours and a live that would allow it, I would think this unfair, but the plain true is that I don’t and like me many other players. We work, we study, we have a live and a family and we can only play an hour or two a day and them need to go back to our lives. If a Lithuanian character emotes me a sentence and I understand it today the true is that I, the player, will forget about it in 2 days or 2 weeks because I have other things in my real live to remember. But my character wouldn’t! Not if he lived his “real” live whith Lithuanians. So the only if a player devotes his full attention and time to the game will he able to “learn” in game a language that he doesn’t know. In game Dictionaries will not solve this either!!!

The second reason is that this rule clearly benefits English speaking players. In geral all the players in the game understand and speak English to a certain point. So a player of any nationality only has to “try” and learn English for 3 cantr years and them he will be able to communicate with the all the English speaking characters. And the same the other way around! A English speaking character arraying to a foreign community only has to “teach” his new friends to speak English for 3 cantr years and them they all can communicate freely This will made the English characters understood all over the cantr worlds. Every one will speak to them, no fuss about it. The others characters will not have this benefit and unless they have the luck to find a character whose players speaks their language communication will always be very hard

Third and last is that this rule benefits the by far players who speaks many different languages. A multilingual player has a clear advantage over other players that only speaks he/she native country language. If I, Mike, speak Spanish French Italian English and Portuguese I only have do try for 3 cantr years to learn in game any of this languages I already know them and after those 3 cantr years I can speak in it. A player that only speaks in his native language can try as hell for 3 cantr years and after them he will barely will to able to communicate. This is a matter of OOC skills not of role play. Characters will have their live made much easier because of the abilities of their players not of their role play or in game abilities. I have a char that spawned in a Lithuanian community. He never lefted that place and all his life lived amongst Lithuanians. He spoke to 4 or 5 Portuguese characters in all his years and always for a little time as they passed by. He made a real effort to learn Lithuanian with emotes and by making good in game dictionaries. He is a good friend of one of the Lithuanians character and is possibly in love with another. It is completely absurd that he can’t talk whith the persons he lived all his live just because, I his player, don’t speak Lithuanian. It would even more absurd if some Portuguese character, whose player spoke Lithuanian arrived there and in 3 years learned what mine couldn’t his whole live. Yes I live there and yes the role play of learning the language and understanding the other characters was fun. But that was them! 3 years have came and pass! 10 years have came and pass. Now I want to bring the role play to a higher level but the language difference it is just ruining the role play because my character can’t speak to his friend family and neighbours.

Note that I am speaking of changing this no English rule for real, long-term based multi-lingual community’s here English is the only common denominator between players, not for commerce between cities or characters or short term and casual cooperation.

[sanchez]

You are always allowed to emote in English or any other mutually understood language. That should be enough to communicate. Nobody is forcing you to learn to speak Lithuanian. If you move to Lithuania irl you will have the same trouble as your chars do now. It's realistic. But you can describe your chars' actions however you like. We will not allow OOC sources of dialogue, however.

It makes no sense to expect to be allowed to speak English and pretend it's Lithuanian. You make this point yourself that everyone could spawn chars in any region if they can all speak English. The languages are seperated into zones so that native speakers can play together, without having to read the word salad generated by most online translators, though Cantr provides a good opportunity to practise languages you are not native in but do possess some fluency in. Some zones are mixed with spawns of multiple languages in the same area, and there probably should be more dicussion about how successful this is. The newest zones, Chinese and Finnish, are isolated now. But to ask that you are allowed to have a char pretend he can communicate with native speakers is wrong for the same reason you are not allowed to spawn a Lithuanian char if you only know Portuguese.

And be clear to distinguish the 3 year rule that applies to players who actually know a language their chars are trying to learn. What you are asking here is completely different, and is completely OOC for your chars. If you can't generate the language, neither can your chars, no matter how long you play together. The spirit of the CR is that your chars' in-game experience is all he has. That is what makes Cantr unique. It is not convenient, and is not meant to be. Your chars don't spawn with knowledge of maps or of people your other chars may have known. And it's the same with language. You choose to spawn in a language you can actually speak reasonably well. It's not too restrictive of your RP to have you emote in a mutually understood language, like English, when you encounter foreigners. Your using English in whispers, pretending your chars are communicating in Lithuanian or Portuguese, gives your chars unfair advantage over other chars.

[Mighty Mike]

I hate to say it Sanchez but you didn’t reply directly to any of the points I made! Take no offence please, but you dodged the questions and couldn’t refute what I say of the rule giving unfair advantage to some players over other chars in those 3 ways!!

And even if you don’t regard my armaments you are only talking about defined spawning areas. If characters were only to spawn in define language areas, I would even start to agree with the rule even if it was unfair. I would only move a character to another place were another language was spoken if I choose to do so, but that is not what happens. At least with Portuguese characters ( I don’t have any others) They are spawned into Lithuanian speaking areas!! They have to live with Lithuanian characters in Lithuanian communities. Role playing wise it doesn’t even make sense for them to speak Portuguese when all the people they ever saw and spoke to all speak Lithuanian,. Probably the same happens to Lithuanian characters in Portuguese communities. What to do in these situations according to the rule? Leave in search of another place to live were people speak the same as you or role play the whole live of your character as a mute or a dumb person who never learned to speak the language of his people and forever describe what you want to say with emotes always being a sort of a pariah in the community you live in never understanding that the others say! Emoting is not the same as speaking or truly understanding what others say. This only obstruct inter language communities and makes for players groups and wars to happen with have nothing to do with role play instead of character groups and wars to emerge in true role play form

I think either the rule should be changed or if not them spawning process to make sure that characters are only spawned in precise and defined location were their language is spoken

[sanchez]

I agree with you that the spawn points should be carefully considered. But that is not the same thing as you are asking. And I have answered your question which is that you are not allowed to use a substitute language because it violates the integrity of the language zones and the CR, no matter your views on spawning together.

I am not going to spawn a Chinese char in the hope that there are players who can speak English with mine in whispers.

My English chars living in the Polish Zone do not speak English expecting to be understood despite the fact that many Polish players can fluently. It would be wrong to allow an entire Polish town to start using English just because my char lives there for 3 years. And it would be unfair to allow only those players who can to use it in whispers with mine.

Your complaint about the difficulty with Portuguese and Lithuanians sharing spawnpoints is legitimate, and the Swedish and Turkish had similar problems. But nobody is allowed to use OOC sources of dialogue. If your chars don't learn the language they can't speak, even if that is difficult for you as a player. That is the answer to your question. You may not substitute English for Lithuanian. You may not spawn a Lithuanian char if you don't know any Lithuanian.

[Chris]

Yeah, the spawning algorithm sucks. Characters should spawn in a designated spawning spot for their language. Then if they choose to travel, they can interact with other language groups. Or the foreigners can travel there. But spawning in a town dominated by speakers of a different language creates more frustration than benefit.

[Pilot]

I don't know if I missed it here.

Mighty Mike, even though I'm fluent in english, german and understand some dutch it doesn't mean that all my charries are the same.

For instance, I have a charrie that has lived among germans for over 12 years now but it's not in her to learn the language so she emotes in english.

Other has constant contact with dutch people but he has choosen not to learn because they are minority, so if they want to commerce with him they have to make themselves understood.

The example I gave of my only speaking dutch charrie was just that, an example. I don't have time to make all my charries multilingual and what's more important, everyone has different personality and their environment is different.

You can choose depending on your time and interest to learn another language or like most spanish charries I know, don't bother.

It's all up to you. Remember that the important thing is that the game gives you the options and you are the only one who can choose among them

[sanchez]

Well said, Alf. And Mike: some of my English chars living in PZ try to use Polish words, some do not. They all emote in English, and some of the Polish players use English or bilingual emotes with them. Some do not, and in that case, my chars don't understand much of the actions on top of not understanding the dialogue. This is typical. I have seen some Swedish, Spanish, and Lithuanian chars use English emotes, and on some occcasions I have used Polish emotes, for which I needed OOC help to generate. Nobody is telling you that is not allowed. Only that you may not speak freely in a language your char doesn't know. And you certainly may not substitute one language for another.

You have made very clear your reasons for disliking the multilingual spawn zone, and all I can say is I am sorry. It does not mean that you don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else.

[Chimaira_00]

Well... I read whole thread and frankly... I can say that Sanchez made her statement perfectly clear. Can't you just play by these rules?

Especially this particular fragment:

The spirit of the CR is that your chars' in-game experience is all he has. That is what makes Cantr unique. It is not convenient, and is not meant to be. Your chars don't spawn with knowledge of maps or of people your other chars may have known. And it's the same with language. (...) Your using English in whispers, pretending your chars are communicating in Lithuanian or Portuguese, gives your chars unfair advantage over other chars.

Bold mine.