Low Population Theory

[the_antisocial_hermit]

You can't always explain why your character chooses to ignore newspawns by notes. It doesn't work that way sometimes. It doesn't have to be cultural or explicable. If there happen to be several characters in a town that are the most active but aren't very friendly to newspawns, that's not something you can just explain all the time. It's not necessarily cultural. Maybe it is in some cases. But to say that they should explain it is just OOC and wrong. This is not about players, it's about characters. If a character is old and well established and has all the interaction it could care about, then it doesn't need to pay attention to newspawns if it doesn't want to just because OOC says that it will drive away fresh blood or enthusiasm or whatever. Maybe they don't want interact rudely or meanly, but prefer to ignore rudely. Characters that feel ignored can move on and find a more hospitable place. That's like saying a player is that way, when you can't tell just from one character. It doesn't mean that all of their characters are that way in other towns.

Every player has a right to complain about changes they dislike no matter how their characters choose to treat newspawns, whether all of their characters act the same or they act differently. Players should not feel a responsibility to make a character act nice or interact rudely or explain why it isn't just so newspawns don't feel so bereft when they have complete control of where they go and could easily find somewhere else. They should not be told that their opinion or complaints about things they don't like is not important because they aren't going to think OOC with their character. It's wrong to say otherwise.

[sanchez]

I just disagree. We all have a responsibilty to new players, no matter how you chose to do it, whether intimidation or generosity, etc.. Otherwise the game is just a bunch of olbies wondering why it isn't fun anymore.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Yea, but no one is saying that a player is not taking part in that responsibility just because they play one or two characters that way. If the character has no interest in a particular character, then so be it; why should it care? It doesn't mean that the player isn't sharing in that responsibility via other characters of theirs. So to say that they have no right to complain because they have a couple that ignore characters that don't interest theirs is like saying you have no right to complain for whatever crazy reason. Maybe the player happens to see newspawns all the time with a char that has no interest in them nor an interest in explaining themselves. Maybe the ones they have that would be helpful (or outright intimidating because they take a dislike to the newspawn) rarely ever see newspawns. Should they be told they have no right to complain about not coming across interesting characters and a declining player base because they haven't had the fortune to meet the right newspawns with the right characters? I think not.

[Phalynx]

I just disagree. We all have a responsibilty to new players, no matter how you chose to do it, whether intimidation or generosity, etc.. Otherwise the game is just a bunch of olbies wondering why it isn't fun anymore.

Totally agree....
And the ignoring newspawns thing, I don't buy the IC rationalisations. There may be the occaisional player who is roleplaying studied ignorance but most of the time it seems to be OOC boredom.

[SekoETC]

You can't always know if it's a new player unless they express confusion like not knowing the difference between OOC and IC, knocking on doors because they're trying to enter a building while working on a project, start projects they don't have resources for and so on. If you spot a newbie and everyone seems to be ignoring them, it might be good to reach towards them somehow, even if your character didn't generally care about newspawns. Also if you are arresting a newspawn thief who seems like a clueless newbie, it's good to be very clear about telling them what you want them to do and that you have a legal right to asking them to drop what they took and that they will be released if they behave themselves.

What I hate is when a newspawn is born with some norms and assumes everyone should follow them even though older citizens might have a different culture. Newspawns should pay some attention to what they are told and adopt the local world view unless it's completely twisted. It's natural for young people to trust blindly in their teachers. Only after noticing their teachers are just humans and making mistakes just like young people do, then it's time to start questioning what they said. But some people are so stuck up with their internal morals that they don't give the society a chance.

It generally ain't fair that a newspawn expects the community to adjust to his or her "supreme" ethics just because he or she is "right" and they are "wrong". If they want to change the community, they must become a part of it and start affecting opinions subtly and aim for a leading position. That or be totally obnoxious, get exiled and later come back with an army.

[T-shirt]

It generally ain't fair that a newspawn expects the community to adjust to his or her "supreme" ethics just because he or she is "right" and they are "wrong".

That sounds like real life.

[MikeH]

I'm not necessarily talking about a newspawn expecting the town to act the way the newspawn wants, though.

I'm talking about a town where the newspawn is ignored, even after making several attempts to interact, even when the oldbies are interacting with each other but not the newspawn. Or treated badly for no apparent reason. Or when the oldbies ignore their own laws in order to treat the newspawn badly.

I was just lucky in that my first character didn't end up in one of those towns, but some of my later characters DID end up in towns like those, and it was very unsettling and unpleasant.

If it had been my FIRST character showing up in one of those towns, I would have quit playing almost immediately.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

I just disagree. We all have a responsibilty to new players, no matter how you chose to do it, whether intimidation or generosity, etc.. Otherwise the game is just a bunch of olbies wondering why it isn't fun anymore.

Totally agree....
And the ignoring newspawns thing, I don't buy the IC rationalisations. There may be the occaisional player who is roleplaying studied ignorance but most of the time it seems to be OOC boredom.

It's about chemistry. Not many people walk up to every stranger in this real world that they see and start up some sort of conversation with them just because they're there. No, most people ignore other people unless they know them or the person provides an interest for them, whether it be by look or action or them being the one to initiate a conversation. Maybe they'll miss out on finding someone with great chemistry if they don't see it right away, but that's their loss, and it's very realistic.

It's not always studied ignoring for a character either. Sometimes it's shyness. Some characters don't like to speak to new people because they're shy. Just like real people. There are plenty of IG reasons for ignoring a character. I don't necessarily think that characters should ignore someone that directly speaks to them though, whether they react rudely or nicely or rp some flushed cheeks and nervous fidgeting and silence. But they shouldn't be expected to reach out to some random newspawn that spawns. Most places I've been there is at least one character that says something like, "Hi, welcome to ______; I'm ______." once they notice a newspawn. If they don't, force a reaction. Bitch the person out if it's your char's personality. Slap someone and say "pay attention to me!" Shoot them in the ass for all I care. Yell and scream if you don't want to break the laws by doing something physical. Act sad. Whatever. It has to come from both sides. I think a lot of players are reactors, not initiators.

[Phalynx]

It's not always studied ignoring for a character either. Sometimes it's shyness. Some characters don't like to speak to new people because they're shy. Just like real people. There are plenty of IG reasons for ignoring a character. I don't necessarily think that characters should ignore someone that directly speaks to them though, whether they react rudely or nicely or rp some flushed cheeks and nervous fidgeting and silence. But they shouldn't be expected to reach out to some random newspawn that spawns. Most places I've been there is at least one character that says something like, "Hi, welcome to ______; I'm ______." once they notice a newspawn. If they don't, force a reaction. Bitch the person out if it's your char's personality. Slap someone and say "pay attention to me!" Shoot them in the ass for all I care. Yell and scream if you don't want to break the laws by doing something physical. Act sad. Whatever. It has to come from both sides. I think a lot of players are reactors, not initiators.

The practical reality is its laziness. I've been back a couple of months after a year or so away and the thing that was way more noticeable to me than any change in game mechanics was the comparative absence of emoting. On the whole I just don't see anyone *doing anything*. You make the point nicely that even not responsing can involve some emoting. It's used to be that characters in their 60s and upwards somehow established the right to be sleepy ignorers responding to very little, but on the face of it now, everyone's at it!

[the_antisocial_hermit]

I have had a shy character that would not start any direct interaction with someone new, and it was not laziness on my part. The character was too shy, and it'd be far out of their ability to do so (and I know exactly how it is to be that way in reality; I cannot start a face-to-face interaction with someone I don't know well, nor hardly even online though it is easier; I generally choose silence because of a paralyzing inability to do anything else). If someone were to interact with it, it would at least respond somehow. So no, not all IG reasons are for laziness' sake. Some are actually valid.

[Phalynx]

I have had a shy character that would not start any direct interaction with someone new, and it was not laziness on my part. The character was too shy, and it'd be far out of their ability to do so (and I know exactly how it is to be that way in reality; I cannot start a face-to-face interaction with someone I don't know well, nor hardly even online though it is easier; I generally choose silence because of a paralyzing inability to do anything else). If someone were to interact with it, it would at least respond somehow. So no, not all IG reasons are for laziness' sake. Some are actually valid.

I'm not sure I buy that.
If you are as shy as your character do you go and stand around amongst groups of strangers in the street? I expect you stay indoors and play cantr (like me) so the fact that your character is outside is already pushing the envelope. And it doesn't stop your character from (and therefore you emoting) looking away, or standing apart from others..
I'm not having a go, and obviously several characters may have reasons to wish to remain unobtrusive... but everyone?

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Just because a person is shy doesn't mean they stay indoors or try to avoid people completely all the time; they just avoid initiating an interaction when they are around people, mostly people they don't know. And just because a character is outside doesn't mean it is in the middle of everyone else. They could be by a secluded building just in sight of other people or whatever. I usually don't imagine any of my characters right in the middle of all the people in town like one would be in a mall. I imagine there being some little groupings of people in the town and the characters in different vicinities of a large communal area, like a town square. I'm shy, but I like to people-watch from a bench in the park or sit on my porch on nice days. Doesn't put me close to people at all nor is it the same as interacting with them. Being shy is not the same as being a recluse. Sometimes the two go hand in hand, but not always. And I never said everyone.

[Voltenion]

I have a shy char...It almost doesn't talk but uses a lot of emotes.

[DylPickle]

Or when the oldbies ignore their own laws in order to treat the newspawn badly.

That's the beauty of power, isn't it? Older characters can abuse their laws as long as they want to, until some other influential character stands up to them. Laws really don't have to be followed by everyone.

[MikeH]

Or when the oldbies ignore their own laws in order to treat the newspawn badly.

That's the beauty of power, isn't it? Older characters can abuse their laws as long as they want to, until some other influential character stands up to them. Laws really don't have to be followed by everyone.

Well, yeah, that's true. But for a newspawn, with no weapons or shields, confronted with that kind of environment... doesn't really make the best first impression... or create an environment someone wants to stay around and continue to play in.

Especially if it's hard for the newspawn to get away to a new town. Distances can be far to walk, and it's even harder if the spawning town won't even give them enough food to make the trip. Or if they get dragged into a locked room.

There's plenty of ways in which oldbies can make things very unwelcoming for newspawn, and if that happens, can we blame a new player for not sticking around?