Hmmm, could it possibly be because EVERY development in the past four years has had the effect of making the game more difficult and time-consuming to play?
Nah. I'm just talkin' crazy talk.
Turn 2310 - Game over?
Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department
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SCUBA
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:43 pm
- Location: Västerlösa, Sweden
This is the way I use my Cantr time:
First of all I make all my characters work. If they have no produktion goal at the moment I still let them collect something or repair all things they have untill all is brand new. I think all players that check Cantr regularly try to do that. As I check cantr normally at atleast 5 different cantrhours a day, only this 'keep them buzy' eats up many of my minutes, and roleplay, as for me comes second, will suffer.
So, I think changes in the game should decrease the effort it takes to 'keep them buzy'. Changes should not forse players to do that or that just to encoruage trade or whatever. Changes should make life easier, so players can put there effort in roleplaying instead of micromanage every characters work.
In general, make life much easier again. New players will understand the game faster and, old players... no, all players will roleplay more. The game will be more fun.
Suggestions.
1 Make animals less dangerous. It should be fun and easy to walk around in the wilderness. Not impossible as today in many places.
2 Make much more projects automated. This will speed up the game alot and make characters think that they not always have to do someting manual to be productive.
3 To encourage trade, make foottravel faster and vehicles cheeper. But keep the fuelimplementation that is comeing. Also double all boats speeds. If it is easier to move, characters will do that much more, and trade will be more frequent.
4 Go back to the 'find out in game rule'. Now all characters know what and how to make all things. Noone has to ask older characters anything. This takes away much of the exitement of playing the game. The rule does not have to be as strict as before and PD check if characters really could know what they semes to know. Just don't put all things public in the wiki ASAP.
5 Take away as many musts as possible, or atleast make them very small. I don't say take away eating every day, but almost. Fuel for vehicles I already adressed. Make it very cheap. Healing from animal attacks, make it easy. The game should not be about how to get all the things you have to have. It should much more be about how to get all the things you whant to have.
6 Work on the lag as much and fast as possible. Lag will always make characters say, and roleplay less.
First of all I make all my characters work. If they have no produktion goal at the moment I still let them collect something or repair all things they have untill all is brand new. I think all players that check Cantr regularly try to do that. As I check cantr normally at atleast 5 different cantrhours a day, only this 'keep them buzy' eats up many of my minutes, and roleplay, as for me comes second, will suffer.
So, I think changes in the game should decrease the effort it takes to 'keep them buzy'. Changes should not forse players to do that or that just to encoruage trade or whatever. Changes should make life easier, so players can put there effort in roleplaying instead of micromanage every characters work.
In general, make life much easier again. New players will understand the game faster and, old players... no, all players will roleplay more. The game will be more fun.
Suggestions.
1 Make animals less dangerous. It should be fun and easy to walk around in the wilderness. Not impossible as today in many places.
2 Make much more projects automated. This will speed up the game alot and make characters think that they not always have to do someting manual to be productive.
3 To encourage trade, make foottravel faster and vehicles cheeper. But keep the fuelimplementation that is comeing. Also double all boats speeds. If it is easier to move, characters will do that much more, and trade will be more frequent.
4 Go back to the 'find out in game rule'. Now all characters know what and how to make all things. Noone has to ask older characters anything. This takes away much of the exitement of playing the game. The rule does not have to be as strict as before and PD check if characters really could know what they semes to know. Just don't put all things public in the wiki ASAP.
5 Take away as many musts as possible, or atleast make them very small. I don't say take away eating every day, but almost. Fuel for vehicles I already adressed. Make it very cheap. Healing from animal attacks, make it easy. The game should not be about how to get all the things you have to have. It should much more be about how to get all the things you whant to have.
6 Work on the lag as much and fast as possible. Lag will always make characters say, and roleplay less.
/SCUBA
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<Nick> I have enjoyed some of your forum posts which is rare.
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<Nick> I have enjoyed some of your forum posts which is rare.
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SekoETC
- Posts: 15526
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:07 am
- Location: Finland
- Contact:
In response to SCUBA's points.
It's still possible to survive without doing nothing at all. Once you've gained a good stock of food and a shield (or a building), you can survive without working all the time. There are some days when only a couple of my characters are working. In fact I think there was a day when two were resting and others doing nothing at all.
1. In the English region, animals are not dangerous at all. It should be more like that when there's a high population of animals, they start dying because there's not enough food. If possible, carnivorous animals should eat herbivores, which should multiply much faster than currently. If you killed off all the rabbits, then wolves would get hungry and start hunting for newspawns. But if there was enough small prey, the carnivores would go for the easy prey and leave people alone, unless attacked. Jos implemented a memory to animals, they now remember who has hurt them. It doesn't affect anything yet, but logically an animal should charge on the hunter, not a random newspawn.
2. I agree with automation. There are some projects like smoking and salting and burning bricks and maybe even making iron, which wouldn't call for constant attending.
3. Hmm, that would be a big change. Rakers are already fast enough to be hard to control. You might easily run into a coast or over a landbridge or lose sight of the coast during one night of sleep in real life. Although the travelling is a pain in the ass, if we didn't have several characters, people would be bored to death on the long roads.
4. Some knowledge is good. People should just be encouraged to align their character knowledge with the general level of knowledge in the society. If your character spawns in a town where a bone spear is high-tech, they shouldn't be looking for iron ingredients. If a character has never seen water, how would they get an idea for building a boat? Even if the player knows something, the characters don't necessarily have to know it all. But sometimes it's easier to check the wiki than waste minutes trying to figure out which machines and tools and parts are used for making some item.
5. Getting food is easy enough as it is. Most characters do not have vehicles that would require fuel. The ones who do have access to steel and iron, they should be able to figure out how to make fuel, even if it was just alcohol. (Plain alcohol can be used as a fuel right?) Restore natural healing. There will still be needs for healing faster than 1% a day so people will still be getting healing foods, and if resting is given healing qualities, people will have more initiative for making furniture. I think it would be good if characters were required to rest every ten days or so, that tiredness would accumulate, then resting would have a meaning in situations other than fighting. But it should be possible to rest on the ground, as said a several times.
6. The lag has been gone for days. I've only noticed it a couple of times lately. It has been annoying but at least I know when to expect it. So I play in the mornings instead. I hope you find what's causing it but anyway, ProgD has been doing good work in fixing it.
This might not be the best place to point it out but fighting is too hard to train. If all you can do is hit yourself every day, then several years is not enough to lift it. At least you should be able to do push-ups to train your physical strength.
It's still possible to survive without doing nothing at all. Once you've gained a good stock of food and a shield (or a building), you can survive without working all the time. There are some days when only a couple of my characters are working. In fact I think there was a day when two were resting and others doing nothing at all.
1. In the English region, animals are not dangerous at all. It should be more like that when there's a high population of animals, they start dying because there's not enough food. If possible, carnivorous animals should eat herbivores, which should multiply much faster than currently. If you killed off all the rabbits, then wolves would get hungry and start hunting for newspawns. But if there was enough small prey, the carnivores would go for the easy prey and leave people alone, unless attacked. Jos implemented a memory to animals, they now remember who has hurt them. It doesn't affect anything yet, but logically an animal should charge on the hunter, not a random newspawn.
2. I agree with automation. There are some projects like smoking and salting and burning bricks and maybe even making iron, which wouldn't call for constant attending.
3. Hmm, that would be a big change. Rakers are already fast enough to be hard to control. You might easily run into a coast or over a landbridge or lose sight of the coast during one night of sleep in real life. Although the travelling is a pain in the ass, if we didn't have several characters, people would be bored to death on the long roads.
4. Some knowledge is good. People should just be encouraged to align their character knowledge with the general level of knowledge in the society. If your character spawns in a town where a bone spear is high-tech, they shouldn't be looking for iron ingredients. If a character has never seen water, how would they get an idea for building a boat? Even if the player knows something, the characters don't necessarily have to know it all. But sometimes it's easier to check the wiki than waste minutes trying to figure out which machines and tools and parts are used for making some item.
5. Getting food is easy enough as it is. Most characters do not have vehicles that would require fuel. The ones who do have access to steel and iron, they should be able to figure out how to make fuel, even if it was just alcohol. (Plain alcohol can be used as a fuel right?) Restore natural healing. There will still be needs for healing faster than 1% a day so people will still be getting healing foods, and if resting is given healing qualities, people will have more initiative for making furniture. I think it would be good if characters were required to rest every ten days or so, that tiredness would accumulate, then resting would have a meaning in situations other than fighting. But it should be possible to rest on the ground, as said a several times.
6. The lag has been gone for days. I've only noticed it a couple of times lately. It has been annoying but at least I know when to expect it. So I play in the mornings instead. I hope you find what's causing it but anyway, ProgD has been doing good work in fixing it.
This might not be the best place to point it out but fighting is too hard to train. If all you can do is hit yourself every day, then several years is not enough to lift it. At least you should be able to do push-ups to train your physical strength.
Not-so-sad panda
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Doug R.
- Posts: 14857
- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:56 pm
- Contact:
Some people commented about the span of time I used to calculate the slope. It was roughly 540 days, which I don't think is a short span of time. Here it is for anyone interested:
If this trend continues, we'll see a slide through summer, and another leveling off starting in mid-October that will slide in December and then level off again at New Year. You can clearly see the double leveling trend once a year.
If this trend continues, we'll see a slide through summer, and another leveling off starting in mid-October that will slide in December and then level off again at New Year. You can clearly see the double leveling trend once a year.
Hamsters is nice. ~Kaylee, Firefly
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Surly
- Posts: 4087
- Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:33 pm
- Location: London, England
In response to those with marketing ideas: I strongly urge you to apply to the MD if you feel you have something to contribute. This is an area where it is probably quite easy for you to have a direct impact on game policy... we desperately need Marketing Department members, both those with ideas and those with energy, to address these issues.
On a more depressing note, I marked that trend a few days ago. I found it hugely worrying, and I'm hoping it not an indication of a game lifespan. I feel maybe it is a sign that we are taking the game in the wrong direction (the emphasis on realism at the expense of enjoyment is highly worrying to me), but the Polish growth belies that. Maybe it is just a marketing issue... I am not really sure.
On a more depressing note, I marked that trend a few days ago. I found it hugely worrying, and I'm hoping it not an indication of a game lifespan. I feel maybe it is a sign that we are taking the game in the wrong direction (the emphasis on realism at the expense of enjoyment is highly worrying to me), but the Polish growth belies that. Maybe it is just a marketing issue... I am not really sure.
Formerly known as "The Surly Cantrian"
Former CD chair, former MD chair, former RD member, former Personnel Officer, former GAB member.
Former CD chair, former MD chair, former RD member, former Personnel Officer, former GAB member.
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Missy
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:12 am
- Location: Pennsylvania
kinvoya wrote:Used to be you could try to sell Cantr as "The Best True Roleplaying Game Ever" but I can't do that anymore because it isn't. What would I say to get people to join? "Play Cantr and tediously build machines so you can make things to trade for food you could probably get for yourself or for stuff you really don't need for anything at all in a town where someone might speak once a day about ... trading stuff! Woot!"
Maybe it's because I avoid the big cities. I dunno. I, personally, like it like this because it demands less of my time but I don't think most people do.
Yes and it used to be that I didn't mind explaining the game to a new player. Now? No way. There's tooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much stuff to go over. Before it was even tedious to try and explain. Now? I don't have enough time in a week to explain it to one person.
I hate people.
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SCUBA
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:43 pm
- Location: Västerlösa, Sweden
SekoETC wrote:In response to SCUBA's points.
6. The lag has been gone for days. I've only noticed it a couple of times lately. It has been annoying but at least I know when to expect it. So I play in the mornings instead. I hope you find what's causing it but anyway, ProgD has been doing good work in fixing it.
This is defenetly not true. ProgD has worked yes, but that there is no lag. Bah!
/SCUBA
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<Nick> I have enjoyed some of your forum posts which is rare.
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<Nick> I have enjoyed some of your forum posts which is rare.
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sanchez
- Administrator Emeritus
- Posts: 8742
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:37 pm
Missy wrote:Yes and it used to be that I didn't mind explaining the game to a new player. Now? No way. There's tooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much stuff to go over. Before it was even tedious to try and explain. Now? I don't have enough time in a week to explain it to one person.
So, if your older chars hold onto leadership positions in game, you want to blame things like fuel and tool rot for the fact that you won't be bothered to engage new players? :s
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tiddy ogg
- Posts: 1402
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:53 pm
- Location: Southampton, England
- Contact:
It's all been getting more complicated, true, but we now have the Wiki, and it surely doesn't take much explaining that you come into the world with nothing and have to use your social skills to progress. The aim of the game hasn't changed, and the technical details will be picked up... as long as the oldbies take the time to help, if only by pointing them to the wiki.
Most of my chars try to help newspawns, and I have sure knowledge that it works. Several have told my chars that without that help they'd have gone off and starved.
But the game needs active players in every spawning location, (which these days means everywhere,) and the game blurb suggesting that you only need a few minutes a day can't help here.
Plus, of course, the lag. I noticed at the time of that reset due to database problems that a lot stopped playing.
Most of my chars try to help newspawns, and I have sure knowledge that it works. Several have told my chars that without that help they'd have gone off and starved.
But the game needs active players in every spawning location, (which these days means everywhere,) and the game blurb suggesting that you only need a few minutes a day can't help here.
Plus, of course, the lag. I noticed at the time of that reset due to database problems that a lot stopped playing.
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Duckers
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 5:15 pm
- Location: Somerset, England
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Drakulya
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:38 pm
- Location: Colorado Springs, CO
As another spokesman of the MD I must say this...
JOIN US IF YOU CAN!!! Honestly, the MD is, and has been, dead for some time now. I started out in the MD with 2 other people to work with, then one of them disappeared, and well... Jos has other things to worry about then a lonesome fellow web-surfing for RPG sites to advert on. Now, Surly leads us, which is just me and another fellow who is silent.
We NEED man power desperately. The only thing I use is typing and wording skills (how to use smart words in cool ways
) and of course basic photo manipulation. Photoshop can work wonders for ads. Join the MD... finally help stop Cantr from falling out from under us. This is a great game, no... an awesome game. Lets not just let it die? If you have 15 minutes a day you could help some. If you full days like me, you can help ALOT! I mean, I'm juggling MD and the 'Zine right now. I'm sure some of you could help us out in the MD.
JOIN US IF YOU CAN!!! Honestly, the MD is, and has been, dead for some time now. I started out in the MD with 2 other people to work with, then one of them disappeared, and well... Jos has other things to worry about then a lonesome fellow web-surfing for RPG sites to advert on. Now, Surly leads us, which is just me and another fellow who is silent.
We NEED man power desperately. The only thing I use is typing and wording skills (how to use smart words in cool ways
) and of course basic photo manipulation. Photoshop can work wonders for ads. Join the MD... finally help stop Cantr from falling out from under us. This is a great game, no... an awesome game. Lets not just let it die? If you have 15 minutes a day you could help some. If you full days like me, you can help ALOT! I mean, I'm juggling MD and the 'Zine right now. I'm sure some of you could help us out in the MD.Only the married understand why they make you say, "Until death do us apart" - Drakulya
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notsure
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:54 pm
I agree with Scuba that some days all I get done is work-related or production-related activities, and that does little for role-play. But many times I think nobody else is awake, so I don't speak either, and if I say just one role-play-oriented thing, three or four people come out of the woodwork and we have great conversations.
So I suggest letting projects go for the day once a week and just rp. We CAN keep the enthusiasm and fun going and more people will stay involved!
notsure
So I suggest letting projects go for the day once a week and just rp. We CAN keep the enthusiasm and fun going and more people will stay involved!
notsure
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Solfius
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:31 pm
west wrote:Hmmm, could it possibly be because EVERY development in the past four years has had the effect of making the game more difficult and time-consuming to play?
Nah. I'm just talkin' crazy talk.
I was going to quote this and follow up with a list of requirements to make a crossbow, in terms of the semi finished products and the resources and tools used to make them and their prerequisites.
However, even trying to do that gave me a mild headache and I had to stop before I developed a migraine.
I don't think I'm ever going to attempt to build a crossbow either, it's too much, and I'm supposed to be an oldbie.
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sanchez
- Administrator Emeritus
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- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:37 pm
But what is the impediment to rp?
Does anybody actually believe that dead sleepy towns would wake up if manufacturing incentives were eliminated? I find the opposite. We mobilise for production more than anything else.
Personally, nothing makes me want to play a char less than ending up in a town of whisperers. Reasonable public discourse ceases when punctuated three times a minutes by what ought to be private, i.e. not visible, conversations.
But not everybody is interested in politics either. And I really like it that the game is enjoyed in diverse ways. I don't want to interact with the same kind of player all the time.
It should not need to be said that older players, and especially staff, have a responsibility in game for the experience of new players. Tiddy is right. And people don't spawn to ask for an invitation to your own private tea party. Teach them before you whine about the quality of the player base. That kind of snobbery is the greater disincentive, imo.
How many people have spawned in a populated place and been ignored?
Does anybody actually believe that dead sleepy towns would wake up if manufacturing incentives were eliminated? I find the opposite. We mobilise for production more than anything else.
Personally, nothing makes me want to play a char less than ending up in a town of whisperers. Reasonable public discourse ceases when punctuated three times a minutes by what ought to be private, i.e. not visible, conversations.
But not everybody is interested in politics either. And I really like it that the game is enjoyed in diverse ways. I don't want to interact with the same kind of player all the time.
It should not need to be said that older players, and especially staff, have a responsibility in game for the experience of new players. Tiddy is right. And people don't spawn to ask for an invitation to your own private tea party. Teach them before you whine about the quality of the player base. That kind of snobbery is the greater disincentive, imo.
How many people have spawned in a populated place and been ignored?
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Solfius
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:31 pm
I'm not a roleplayer, I play Cantr as a strategy game, but just looking at the build requirements for the advanced weaponry I feel greatly discouraged.
For me, I enjoy achieving in-game milestones, but even I'm feeling overwhelmed by the complexity of many things now.
To achieve what I have previously done is increasingly difficult in terms of manpower but also in terms of the requirements to build many more complex things.
The smelting process is a challenge on its own, particularly the logistics of supplying over a great distance, but it's not impossible, and I nearly had it once before real life got in the way, but many things now just seem too complicated to be practically achievable from a newspawn perspective, which is how I'm seeing the game after an extended break.
As I consider my chars, their current positions, and the kinds of things I could aim to build, I can't help but feel such things are unattainable. If this is how new players see the game, then it's no wonder we are losing players rather than gaining new long term players.
I'm not asking for everything to be given on a plate, I'm not even trying to suggest a remedy, and I fully acknowledge that to make things too easy is plain boring. Challenge is a good thing, but when a challenge appears to be impossible to complete then it is detrimental and discourages people to play.
For me, I enjoy achieving in-game milestones, but even I'm feeling overwhelmed by the complexity of many things now.
To achieve what I have previously done is increasingly difficult in terms of manpower but also in terms of the requirements to build many more complex things.
The smelting process is a challenge on its own, particularly the logistics of supplying over a great distance, but it's not impossible, and I nearly had it once before real life got in the way, but many things now just seem too complicated to be practically achievable from a newspawn perspective, which is how I'm seeing the game after an extended break.
As I consider my chars, their current positions, and the kinds of things I could aim to build, I can't help but feel such things are unattainable. If this is how new players see the game, then it's no wonder we are losing players rather than gaining new long term players.
I'm not asking for everything to be given on a plate, I'm not even trying to suggest a remedy, and I fully acknowledge that to make things too easy is plain boring. Challenge is a good thing, but when a challenge appears to be impossible to complete then it is detrimental and discourages people to play.
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