Maximum number of resource gatherers

[Nixit]

Woah woah woah... Satai, where I am there's plenty of roleplaying, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

And for the record, I'm not miserable.

[Songthrush]

Are we playing the same game, guys? 20-30 newspawns in the same location, organized by a clever fearless leader? What are we even talking about?

[AoM]

I'm answering a hypothetical posed earlier by Just A Bill. Not really paying attention to your line of conversation. As it's just flaming at this point.

[kinvoya]

I think every player gets his or her chance to freak out the first time they experience a major change in the game mechanics. I know I did...a couple of times.

And I would probably be throwing a fit about this one except I think it's exactly what Cantr needs. Not because it will increase trade or cooperation or organization but because it will make the struggle for life harder for newspawns and for a lot of not-so-newspawns. I have been advocating this for some time now. There is nothing worse, in my opinion, than an easy Cantr life.

I really, really wish that a couple of my chars were in danger of dying so I could have a couple of newspawns who would have to scramble and struggle and fight to survive. I truely find that to be a very fun aspect of the game and you know what? If they starve to death or get murdered you start a new one. Cause...it's a game!!!

I think a world like Cantr would and should be a very hard place to survive in. If you were twenty years old and had no relatives and no friends and you suddenly found yourself in a strange place don't you think it would be a little bit tough to survive? Do you think you would just walk into someones garden and start pulling up food without getting into a lot of trouble?

This reminds me of the Great Depression in the 1930s in the USA when the economy was suddenly destroyed and millions of people lost their jobs, homes and farms. They were desperately wandering from place to place begging for work or food. There was great chaos and suffering until things were resolved. The young, the weak and the vulnerable were the first to die.

I think there will be great chaos (already happening, I guess) and suffering before towns figure out how to deal with this. I don't think they will ignore newspawns forever because they will need a stream of new workers as others become unproductive.

There is tremendous opportunity for roleplay even if your character has to work in a factory to stay alive. I just the other day watched the DVD of The Pianist where people were forced by circumstances beyond their control to do just about anything to survive and most did not. Most didn't just stop trying to survive, though. They did what they had to and tried to find what happiness they could.

Please forgive me for comparing Cantr to the horrible tragedy of the Holocaust (and the Depression) but I always look for real life comparisons. In that movie (based on a real person's life) a tremendously talented musician gradually looses everything in his life. He goes from a luxurious life to a life where he stuggles day by day to find a little food and water. He sees people murdered all around him every day but still he struggles to live.

If your characters struggle and die or are unable to fullfill their dreams, then roleplay those realities. That's what Cantr is about. It isn't that you decided what your character will do and move toward it without obstacle.

You never know what will happen in Cantr and that's what makes it great and different from every other game in the universe. Appreciate obstacles, they make life interesting.

[Songthrush]

You armchair theoreticians never cease to amaze me. While one admonished me about "natural selection", another was already hot on his heels with the theory that one has to "participate in society" to survive (pseudo-Rousseau), and now I get to hear all about the theory of holocaust survival.

What I'm getting at is exceedingly simple.

The game is no longer any fun for a solitary newspawn. Everyone begins as a newspawn. All newspawns start out as solitaries. There is nothing a newspawn can do in a big city to survive on his own. Do you see the problem yet. This is a major, fatal game design mistake.

How else can I put it. You are a character, you are like everyone else, you want to do stuff. You learn the game's interface, but no matter what you try, you can't collect any resources that you need to make stuff or trade. You have no idea what's going on, so you get bored and quit ten minutes later. The end.

The roleplay aspects concern only my particular characters and may not mean anything in the larger scheme of things. Although, if anyone has thought of an in-character way to explain the meaning of the new resource caps, do let me know.

[kinvoya]

There is nothing a newspawn can do in a big city to survive on his own.

This is not true. The newspawn may not be able to farm but there are plenty of other ways to try to get food. You seem to have a very defeatist attitude. If you can't think of any other ways to get by in society then your newspawns probably will starve. And the game isn't for everyone. Just those it is for.

I guess it's only for you if it's really easy.

[Songthrush]

None of my characters will have any trouble surviving under the new conditions, because none of them are newspawns and I already know about the game. My amusing conversation with SnakeBytes was all about the survival of *diferent ways of playing Cantr* and not of particular characters.

Please, make an attempt to see the heart of the matter - a game design issue. If a newspawn can't farm, he should be able to click a button in the interface to join a factory, a city-controlled resource mine, get food from a dispenser, etc. - it cannot be handled by this exceedingly awkward "ERROR: We thought of a new way of making your life more difficult" mechanism.

[Yo_Yo]

Well for most people in Cantr, it reflects real life. To get ahead and stop being stuck in a rutt, kiss ass. Reapply as needed :p

But for people like me, Ruthlessly take what you want, give nothing back! Gharrrrr!

[kinvoya]

In Cantr there are as few "click a button" options as possible. Do you click a button and get work or food? If a newspawn wants to survive, he or she will have to convice someone to give them a job or whatever.

[Songthrush]

a man in his twenties says: "Hi, I'm a Peter Pan, a newspawn!!! "
You see a man in his twenties die from hunger.
You say: "Our repair shop is always looking for fine lads like yourself, Peter Pan. We pay 100g potatos a day. OOC: Aw, forget it, I'm too late logging in again..."

[mordiken]

Towns have already started making it illegal for anyone other then a few long time workers from collecting anything, which they have to hoard now because they can't have as many people to fill the demand as well as what they need for themselves. The towns with iron refuse to trade it in fear their dictatorships will be upsurped by some other power hungry jerks. I don't know about you guys but my characters are having a blast repairing non stop and begging for food this is like a reality show.

[Agar]

This impementation actually HINDERS trade. Think it though here.

To trade ... one needs something to trade with ...

Now that there's a population gathering limit ... we can't get resources to trade with ...

Trade dies because the only ones that can trade are older characters with hoards. No new stockpiles of tradeable goods, or any goods, can be put into play because no one can get at them.

This current implementation is killing trade.

[Slowness_Incarnate]

I still say that is's absurd that it seems only 12 people can gather resources in a certain town, that is huge. I might not be right on that exact number, but I am going to go and count. Out of a town that LARGE, the limit should be higher. It doesn't promote trade, it promotes greed and hording. When there is less, people take more just so they won't run out. It makes people selfish, cruel, and insensitive.

[Songthrush]

I don't understand how the resource department lets changes like these happen in-game without first being closely consulted. Isn't it the responsibility of the resource department to make sure such things are done with some strategic foresight?

The implementation we have now is a sad, typical programmer's kludge. That "too many people are collecting resources" error message is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous in the context of our game.

No one seems to care that people are going to be seeing A LOT of that message in many well-populated spawning areas. We already know the first thing they think about it: "Huh?" and even the second thing: "It's a bug."

The third thing they think might well be "let me go try another game instead".

[julie2]

This impementation actually HINDERS trade. Think it though here.

To trade ... one needs something to trade with ...

Now that there's a population gathering limit ... we can't get resources to trade with ...

Trade dies because the only ones that can trade are older characters with hoards. No new stockpiles of tradeable goods, or any goods, can be put into play because no one can get at them.

This current implementation is killing trade.

That's EXACTLY the point I was making yesterday, Agar. I guess I must have used too many words to state my case. Glad someone else sees it.

What's more it will hinder production as well, because production requires basic resouces to work with. Nearly all other activity in CANtr (besides talking and mapmaking) is dependant on resource-gathering.

All of this "let's make Catr realistically difficult" stuff is a red herring. Jos implemented this not to make the game more difficult , but to stimulate trade;and it's sucess , or failure, shoud be judged in those terms.. In my opinion it not only screws up trade, but screws up much else into the bargain.