Economy in Cantr - a follow-up on Jos Elkink's article

[Birdsall007]

I guess technically it's a breach, but then bank notes are forged IRL. I'm glad for the information before I started using sealed envelopes as currency, I just wish that there was something.

[Russell of Los Angeles]

I guess currency was invented because it's easier to carry paper notes or coins than it is to carry the equivilant value of carrots. However, since the currency represents a promise (like a "promisary note"), it's got to be backed up by someone's honor. In the case of a government that mints currency, they (in theory) have the currency backed up by something, like gold in a storehouse somewhere.

Say I've got a merchant in Cantr who's got 12kg of raw resource X. She trades this big heap of raw resources for another raw resource, resource Y. Resource Y is more rare and/or useful than X, so she receives 8000g of resource Y. This she trades for 5000g of a yet more valuable resource, resource Z. This heap of resource Z she trades for a valuable tool that weighs less than 1000g. Now it happens that there's nothing lighter that is of equal or greater value than this great tool she's got, so what she's really got in her hands is the "coin" of the realm. A big, fancy, 1000g coin. She can hold many more of these coins than she can of resource X, so she's able to travel from place to place, trading for lighter resources and tools while still holding on to her wealth.

On the one hand, there is the bookkeeping of credits and debts, backed up by trust and the force of a Cantr government. On the other hand, currency is simply the most valuable object or resource easily carried.

[Sho]

Good thought; that really is the best way of transporting wealth in Cantr. Unfortunately it's not used much, because few cities, if any, have trade lively enough that your merchant can be confident of quickly getting (at a reasonable rate) the reverse trade from valuable tool to common resource.

[Stan]

Currency would have some value if it could be converted by to the original resource that it was made from.

Simple coins in the past did not "represent a promise" of payment. They were the actual resource. You got a gold or silver coin, which was valuable everywhere.

In Cantr if you make an iron coin, it isn't useful to anyone outside of the city it was made. If it could be applied to an iron project it would be tradeable anywhere.

Iron is still the most valuable item in Cantr in most places. Why would any character want a coin that is worth 50g of iron if that character has to travel several days to collect his iron by trading in a coin? If the coin is worth 50g of iron it should weigh 50g and be able to be applied to an iron project.

[chadpants]

Even though iron seems to be the backbone of Cantr economy in most places, iron in and of itself does not seem to be a very tradeable commodity. Hematite, coal, and limestone are far more tradeable than iron. The trouble with iron is that nobody wants to trade it away or use it in payment once its made. The most likely reason for this is because most towns burn up their stock of iron very quickly.

If there were much larger quantities of iron in reserves of major "hub" cities, they would not be so reticent to trade it. But it seems the only way to build up reserves is to produce it quicker than it is being consumed. The factor that keeps this from being possible seems to be the lack of vehicles that can transport large quantities of resources quickly over land.

Take Noniwrok- aka "K Isle"- as an example. Without resources to make glass, the best they can hope for would be a massive number of motorcycles to transport resources. The motorcycles themselves consume a large amount of resources to build, and they don't carry much once build, so they are impractical as a trasport vehicle.

In the case of the KDS, the resources needed for glass is quite a trek from the region, so the making of those vehicles are still years away.

Not to say in those two examples that transport vehicles will never be built or available... at the present rate, it appears to be several years away before we see them come into play. Once they do, we'll start to see iron supply exceed iron demand, and economies will begin to kick into high gear. Until then, it seems futile to talk about establishing a currency without a supporting economy behind it.

[Russell of Los Angeles]

Simple coins in the past did not "represent a promise" of payment. They were the actual resource. You got a gold or silver coin, which was valuable everywhere.

Well, I wouldn't say coins were a resource in the sense that we speak of a resource in Cantr. The metal could be melted and made into a ring or arrowhead, but that's not the same thing as spending it as a coin. Early coins had value in part because they were made of precious metals, but more importantly, I think, because people trusted that other people will accept their mint value. This trust in the minted value parallels the promise of a written note that were the first bills.

Just as a disclaimer to accuracy, I should say I haven't done any research on early currency.

*edit*
Having done a little searching, I found some links on early currency:

Wikipedia - Currency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency

Early Australian Currency
http://www.australianstamp.com/Coin-web ... otesAnchor

Newfoundland Currency and Banking Institutions
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ae050/currency.html

[The Industriallist]

Simple coins in the past did not "represent a promise" of payment. They were the actual resource. You got a gold or silver coin, which was valuable everywhere.

Well, I wouldn't say coins were a resource in the sense that we speak of a resource in Cantr. The metal could be melted and made into a ring or arrowhead, but that's not the same thing as spending it as a coin. Early coins had value in part because they were made of precious metals, but more importantly, I think, because people trusted that other people will accept their mint value. This trust in the minted value parallels the promise of a written note that were the first bills.

Just as a disclaimer to accuracy, I should say I haven't done any research on early currency.

Their 'minted value' was a guarantee (from whoever issued the coin) that the coin had a specific amount of each metal in it. Initially, it was simply that a given coin was minted as 10 grams of pure gold, or some such, and was worth the same, but was easier to spend because merchants didn't have to weigh it and assay it for gold content.

In cantr, you can get this exact functionality by just handing over quantities of material. Purity is guaranteed and weighing is trivial. If you want a reason for issueing currency in cantr it has to be either a backed currency or a modern-style unbacked currency.

[Russell of Los Angeles]

In cantr, you can get this exact functionality by just handing over quantities of material. Purity is guaranteed and weighing is trivial. If you want a reason for issueing currency in cantr it has to be either a backed currency or a modern-style unbacked currency.

Oh! You're right. I just read about a fellow who minted coins with steam power...

"He wanted his coins to double as weights and measures and for this reason his penny piece contained one full ounce of copper from the Welsh mines and the twopenny piece - two ounces of copper. No wonder they were nicknamed 'cartwheels'. Grocers thought it a good idea though, and used the coins when weighing out flour, and so forth. The twopenny piece could also be used to measure cloth: eight lined up end-to-end equalled one foot (30 centimetres)."
-from the Early Australian Currency site I put above.

These uses of coins are irrelevant for Cantrians.

But I'm not sure what you mean by a backed or unbacked currency.

[nitefyre]

In the case of the KDS, the resources needed for glass is quite a trek from the region, so the making of those vehicles are still years away.

Years away? Perhaps for those who still carrots out of the ground with dungforks.

Take Noniwrok- aka "K Isle"- as an example. Without resources to make glass, the best they can hope for would be a massive number of motorcycles to transport resources. The motorcycles themselves consume a large amount of resources to build, and they don't carry much once build, so they are impractical as a trasport vehicle.

Motorcycles also require magnesium, which is not found on the island, which encourages exploration, colonization and trade. That's probably why my character was the first to have one. It's useful for communications, though. And you always have rickshaws and bike carts that don't require magnesium for transportation.

[Black Canyon]

Perhaps we should start with a currency that has intrinsic worth. For instance, a coin worth 1000g of iron. It is made by melting down 1000g of iron to become a coin which weighs approximately 1g, for example. It is sought after since it weighs less and is easy to carry. When melted down... this very coin will again become 1000g of iron. No promises or trust of government needed at all.

I'm a big fan of simplicity.

[wichita]

Yay! BC understands the KISS rule! *Kisses BC.*

[chadpants]

In the case of the KDS, the resources needed for glass is quite a trek from the region, so the making of those vehicles are still years away.

Years away? Perhaps for those who still carrots out of the ground with dungforks.

Not understanding that statement. Are you saying it's years away for technologically underdeveloped towns in the region? Sure, some towns in the region may be closer to having cars built, but one town with a car isn't going to get the economy built up that much faster...

Take Noniwrok- aka "K Isle"- as an example. Without resources to make glass, the best they can hope for would be a massive number of motorcycles to transport resources. The motorcycles themselves consume a large amount of resources to build, and they don't carry much once build, so they are impractical as a trasport vehicle.

Motorcycles also require magnesium, which is not found on the island, which encourages exploration, colonization and trade. That's probably why my character was the first to have one. It's useful for communications, though. And you always have rickshaws and bike carts that don't require magnesium for transportation.

I stand corrected regarding the lack of magnesium on K-Isle. Still the same problem regarding speed of transportation exists with rickshaws and bike carts. It would still take (forgive me, as this is a rough guess) a good part of a half-year to travel from one end of the island to the other using either of those vehicles.

[nitefyre]

In the case of the KDS, the resources needed for glass is quite a trek from the region, so the making of those vehicles are still years away.

Years away? Perhaps for those who still carrots out of the ground with dungforks.

Not understanding that statement. Are you saying it's years away for technologically underdeveloped towns in the region? Sure, some towns in the region may be closer to having cars built, but one town with a car isn't going to get the economy built up that much faster...

Take Noniwrok- aka "K Isle"- as an example. Without resources to make glass, the best they can hope for would be a massive number of motorcycles to transport resources. The motorcycles themselves consume a large amount of resources to build, and they don't carry much once build, so they are impractical as a trasport vehicle.

Motorcycles also require magnesium, which is not found on the island, which encourages exploration, colonization and trade. That's probably why my character was the first to have one. It's useful for communications, though. And you always have rickshaws and bike carts that don't require magnesium for transportation.

I stand corrected regarding the lack of magnesium on K-Isle. Still the same problem regarding speed of transportation exists with rickshaws and bike carts. It would still take (forgive me, as this is a rough guess) a good part of a half-year to travel from one end of the island to the other using either of those vehicles.

To respond to KDS, The MacGregors have had a stationcar since at least the 800s, and Seatown Forest just constructed one, and the MacGregors just constructed a Van, brimmed to capacity with 10 people; that is exluding the countless bicycles, tandem bikes, motorcycles, ships, etc.

And as for K-Isle, I think going across an island in 10 days is rather quick.

Considering the speed of Cantr as a slow paced game, I really don't see what's so dire.

[The Industriallist]

But I'm not sure what you mean by a backed or unbacked currency.

Backed would be someone guarantees that they will give you a fixed value for the coin. Most major currencies used to be gold or silver backed. A dollar could actually be exchanged for a fixed amount of gold.

Unbacked is like most modern currencies (including the dollar). No one is guananteeing anything. They're worth what they are by virtue of mass hallucination and a common interest in continuing to pretend they have value, or something along those lines.

Perhaps we should start with a currency that has intrinsic worth. For instance, a coin worth 1000g of iron. It is made by melting down 1000g of iron to become a coin which weighs approximately 1g, for example. It is sought after since it weighs less and is easy to carry. When melted down... this very coin will again become 1000g of iron. No promises or trust of government needed at all.

Umm...matter compression? It would certainly be useful...though not just for iron. I want my potato coin...10 days of food in a single gram.

Still the same problem regarding speed of transportation exists with rickshaws and bike carts. It would still take (forgive me, as this is a rough guess) a good part of a half-year to travel from one end of the island to the other using either of those vehicles.

Well, a longboat can get from any of the 4 ports on the island to any of the others in less than 5 days, while carrying an incredible amount of mass...

And I second the point that 10 days isn't that long.

[chadpants]

Good thing we're focusing on the speed of travel and my point wasn't lost.

We're talking about the economy, and money and trade of iron. Nobody is willing to trade away their iron. I was guessing that it might be due to the fact that towns can't keep up with the demand, so they bogart their iron.