So you're an excellent player with a LOT of previous experience that goes into every newspawn you make (i.e. you know the value of steel weapons, and so your character knows the value of steel weapons from the moment he spawns, and does everything necessary to obtain those weapons). But most of us are not. And most people in society are not excellent. As a matter of fact, a full half of all real people are below average. I think the game should reflect this. Becasue IRL, any thug with no real skills of any sort, can nonetheless acquire a weapon and kill a bunch of people. Why is it that in Cantr, only the excellent (or, as I maintain, the lucky and the established) should have access to them?
BTW. One of my characters has a steel weapon as well, and he is 26. But it is only because he took a job as a low level functionary in a non-democratic republic. He does not make the decisions, he only participates in the society as much as he is allowed, and then only as a person who chases thieves. If he wanted to leave the town, he is expected to surrender his weapon and his shield. So the weapon is not his, and he is not a citizen, merely a cog in what passes for a society, because there is a short constitution, and a steel monopoly.
You can have a lucky character, who begins his life with the aim of getting a steel weapon, and this is all he does for 5 years, until he achieves that goal, which I suggest is precisely what you described. But this is neither very realistic (e.g, when I became more or less cemented in what I wanted to do with my life, acquiring a weapon was not one of the things on my list), nor does it reflect a goal of SOCIETY. The twisted up state of things in Cantr is reflected by the fact that the overwhelming majority of people in this game do not participate to any degree in their government, nor would they have the opportunity to even if they lived above the subsistance level and could count on a regular and effective defense against the forces of chaos that periodically sweep through communities, seemingly, though paradoxically, at will and at random. The game simply is not set up to encourage anything other than resource gathering, and the very few who buck that system either rise to the top or are put down by those who are already there, and end up taking up a life of wandering and story telling or trading.
If Cantr is supposed to be a society simulator, I agree with the original argument that this game fails as a society simulator. If it is to be a patron-client relationship simulator, it does an outstanding job.
WM
Cantr is a failure.
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Jos Elkink
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I totally disagree 
... I can see quite a few 'flaws' in Cantr, but really don't think this is one of them.
I have a bunch of characters at the moment and the oldest is around 32 or something. Only two have a steel weapon, I think, and none of them produced one him/herself. I'm trying to make some now, and it's annoyingly difficult ...
All my chars, though, have interesting positions. Some high up, some low. One is running a bigger and bigger company, even though he's just in his twenties; another is just a recent employee of a big company, but rising and really involved in the region's politics; another is having a nice comfortable job and renting a nice apartment (I think - nobody told me the address yet
) ... In other words: it's really what you make of it.
If the only way you think you can really play is by getting a weapon and get in charge of a new town, then yes, this game might be disappointing. It's a much slower process to get in such a position. Get a job, get friends, get gradually more powerful and influential, slowly set out your plans ... And you can get there.
If your argument is that you need to be smart to play this game - that's good, in my opinion. But if you think you cannot climb up on the social ladder inside Cantr, while you're able to write the above post, then I think you simply underestimate yourself ...
Is social Darwinism a good mechanism for a society simulator? I definitely think so!
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I really don't understand what you propose as an alternative. How would a society simulator look like that corrects for the flaws you are pointing out?
... I can see quite a few 'flaws' in Cantr, but really don't think this is one of them.
I have a bunch of characters at the moment and the oldest is around 32 or something. Only two have a steel weapon, I think, and none of them produced one him/herself. I'm trying to make some now, and it's annoyingly difficult
...
All my chars, though, have interesting positions. Some high up, some low. One is running a bigger and bigger company, even though he's just in his twenties; another is just a recent employee of a big company, but rising and really involved in the region's politics; another is having a nice comfortable job and renting a nice apartment (I think - nobody told me the address yet
) ... In other words: it's really what you make of it.
If the only way you think you can really play is by getting a weapon and get in charge of a new town, then yes, this game might be disappointing. It's a much slower process to get in such a position. Get a job, get friends, get gradually more powerful and influential, slowly set out your plans ... And you can get there.
If your argument is that you need to be smart to play this game - that's good, in my opinion. But if you think you cannot climb up on the social ladder inside Cantr, while you're able to write the above post, then I think you simply underestimate yourself
...
Is social Darwinism a good mechanism for a society simulator? I definitely think so!
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I really don't understand what you propose as an alternative. How would a society simulator look like that corrects for the flaws you are pointing out?
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Jos Elkink
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wm
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Just a couple points.
Social Darwinism is not society. It is state of nature type stuff. I am not a Hobbesian, and don't believe the base motivation for life should be struggle. Social darwinism in the real world leads to such things as racial supremacy, justifying social inequality by claiming that poor people are poor because they are lazy, rather than thinking there is a problem with the system, etc...
I have pretty much struggled with my characters, and for the most part, my characters are no more integrated into society than they were the day they spawned. Some of them are associates in a business venture.
The alternative I suggest is to de-emphasize the importance of steel and decrease the amount of time it takes to travel between cities. If you really want to see the rise of complex, multi-area governments (as you said when you said that you are a fan of empires) this is the best way to do it. It you really want survival of the fittest to be applied in your society, make steel infinitely accessable, so everyone can have access to it. Then systems will eventually win out. The organizers can play the game, and organize effective defenses against those who seek to live outside of the law. By keeping everyone weak, and only a few strong, there is no opportunity for a new guy, with a GREAT idea on how to organize a community, from actually trying out some of his ideas.
Plus, also, I would suggest that "economy" and "government" concepts be seperated. How do we do this? By de-politicizing steel. The best example of this is Seatown forest, which monopolizes its resources, and uses them to lord it over their neighbors. Right now, everyone wants steel, and the only resource close by in that region is the Forest, where a dictator rules, and is backed up by a steel army, of sorts. Steel is a political weapon, then, to force compliance even by foeriegners. If Steel was not so important, this arbitrary power would not exist, and the people who rule there would have to create some sort of system to justify their rule, other than the monopoly they maintain over the SINGLE MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY on the face of the map.
I am saying, make steel easily acquirable, to level out the playing field. Otherwise, it is very easy for malcontents to make the argument that Cantr is a failure as a society simulator.
WM
Social Darwinism is not society. It is state of nature type stuff. I am not a Hobbesian, and don't believe the base motivation for life should be struggle. Social darwinism in the real world leads to such things as racial supremacy, justifying social inequality by claiming that poor people are poor because they are lazy, rather than thinking there is a problem with the system, etc...
I have pretty much struggled with my characters, and for the most part, my characters are no more integrated into society than they were the day they spawned. Some of them are associates in a business venture.
The alternative I suggest is to de-emphasize the importance of steel and decrease the amount of time it takes to travel between cities. If you really want to see the rise of complex, multi-area governments (as you said when you said that you are a fan of empires) this is the best way to do it. It you really want survival of the fittest to be applied in your society, make steel infinitely accessable, so everyone can have access to it. Then systems will eventually win out. The organizers can play the game, and organize effective defenses against those who seek to live outside of the law. By keeping everyone weak, and only a few strong, there is no opportunity for a new guy, with a GREAT idea on how to organize a community, from actually trying out some of his ideas.
Plus, also, I would suggest that "economy" and "government" concepts be seperated. How do we do this? By de-politicizing steel. The best example of this is Seatown forest, which monopolizes its resources, and uses them to lord it over their neighbors. Right now, everyone wants steel, and the only resource close by in that region is the Forest, where a dictator rules, and is backed up by a steel army, of sorts. Steel is a political weapon, then, to force compliance even by foeriegners. If Steel was not so important, this arbitrary power would not exist, and the people who rule there would have to create some sort of system to justify their rule, other than the monopoly they maintain over the SINGLE MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY on the face of the map.
I am saying, make steel easily acquirable, to level out the playing field. Otherwise, it is very easy for malcontents to make the argument that Cantr is a failure as a society simulator.
WM
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Jos Elkink
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I really think that our disagreement is the effect of having totally, utterly contradicting views of how the real world works, and I don't think we'll find a compromise here ... Maybe I'm wrong, of course.
I think politics and economics are totally related. I think the fact that rule is based on power over resources is exactly what makes Cantr a realistic society simulator. Existing powers in the real world do not come about because of ideas or systems, but because of power of goods or over people.
Yes, social Darwinism is the background of Nazi like philosophies. I think that's a stupid kind of philosophy to derive from it, and I totally don't agree with those. But I do think that the real world is to a large extent exactly that, survival of the fittest.
Ideology / ideas comes in exactly to counter that. Saying that all poor people are just not working hard enough, or that the fact that Africa is poor only because blacks are just apparently not smart enough, that's a really bad interpretation of social Darwinism. Saying that some people are poor because of survival of the fittest and simply because some people are oppressing them and therefore trying to help them, is an non-Darwinist ideology in a Darwinist world. Cantr is a Darwinist world - so why would such ideologies / systems be impossible in Cantr?
Not sure I get my point across, but, that's basically what I can say about it
...
Cantr is a harsh world, and social organisation is there to deal with it. Making Cantr easy is going to make it an utterly boring game, imo.
... Maybe I'm wrong, of course.
I think politics and economics are totally related. I think the fact that rule is based on power over resources is exactly what makes Cantr a realistic society simulator. Existing powers in the real world do not come about because of ideas or systems, but because of power of goods or over people.
Yes, social Darwinism is the background of Nazi like philosophies. I think that's a stupid kind of philosophy to derive from it, and I totally don't agree with those. But I do think that the real world is to a large extent exactly that, survival of the fittest.
Ideology / ideas comes in exactly to counter that. Saying that all poor people are just not working hard enough, or that the fact that Africa is poor only because blacks are just apparently not smart enough, that's a really bad interpretation of social Darwinism. Saying that some people are poor because of survival of the fittest and simply because some people are oppressing them and therefore trying to help them, is an non-Darwinist ideology in a Darwinist world. Cantr is a Darwinist world - so why would such ideologies / systems be impossible in Cantr?
Not sure I get my point across, but, that's basically what I can say about it
...
Cantr is a harsh world, and social organisation is there to deal with it. Making Cantr easy is going to make it an utterly boring game, imo.
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Lumin
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I knew this thread would guarantee some interesting reading for when I got home.
I think the topic has shifted slightly, my post was really not about the difficulties faced by individual newspawns now as opposed to before, but the effect that all the changes have had on society in general. Though I do agree that too much of the game's focus seems to be on iron and steel. You need it for everything, not just weapons and shields. Even if you have a peace-loving character who only wants to be a tailor, their first goal is going to have to be iron. Even something as simple as a resource trading business requires it, unless they never intend to trade more than they can carry at one time.
I do think things are starting to get better for new chars lately, though a lot depends on where they spawn. Not too long ago Cantr was divided up into a strict feudal system of haves and have-nots, but it's finally getting to the point where there's enough production of new iron to make it possible for some of the younger characters to be on the same level as the old. Granted, in many places that feudal system is still very much in existence, but it's more because the governments there have structured things to keep themselves in power than any flaw in game design.
But IMHO the main reason for the huge gulf between the young and old goes back to my original post. If the early days of Cantr were some kind of golden era, the iron change was the beginning of the Dark Ages. It caused a huge setback in industry and production, allowed the wealthy to lord it over the masses, etc. And while it's now slowly getting to the point where the masses can compete again, a lot of their success is still based on the infrastructure set up in the old days.
Bowser's post actually illustrates that pretty nicely. I'd be curious to know how long his character on the deserted island would take to build a stone quarry, what with all the tools and machinery required. I assume the character in Quillanoi got the iron by working for someone else for a few years, but where did they get their iron?
That's kind of what I was referring to with my 'rotten foundation' comment. (I originally had trouble explaining what I meant, and the post was getting too long, so I had to settle for a vague metaphor. ) I assume the reason for all these huge changes was because the game was too easy, unrealistic, or unbalanced without them. Yet it was during all these easy, unrealistic, unbalanced times that many of the major cities, governments, and even individual characters came into power, and to this day many of them are still in power because of it. Not only that, but all this wealth they acquired through what are now completely invalid means continues to effect each 'generation' of newspawns (whether it's by making their lives easier or harder), and will probably continue to do so for a long, long time to come.
That's where my earlier thought on getting a fresh start comes in - I sort of think of Cantr as a big experiment, but the petri dish has been contaminated so much now that maybe it would be a good idea to start a new one.
Actually, my comment on paying for a 'blank slate' version of Cantr was mostly facetious, but now that I think about it, I wonder if we have enough of a player base to make that a possibility some day. What about two Cantrs? The current game, and a 'pay-to-play' copy of it where everyone can start over in a big untamed, unnamed wilderness. And the pay version could still get all the cool new stuff like fishing from boats and destroying buildings and the like, only changes would happen less often and be less disruptive because they're tested and balanced out in the free game first.
I think the topic has shifted slightly, my post was really not about the difficulties faced by individual newspawns now as opposed to before, but the effect that all the changes have had on society in general. Though I do agree that too much of the game's focus seems to be on iron and steel. You need it for everything, not just weapons and shields. Even if you have a peace-loving character who only wants to be a tailor, their first goal is going to have to be iron. Even something as simple as a resource trading business requires it, unless they never intend to trade more than they can carry at one time.
I do think things are starting to get better for new chars lately, though a lot depends on where they spawn. Not too long ago Cantr was divided up into a strict feudal system of haves and have-nots, but it's finally getting to the point where there's enough production of new iron to make it possible for some of the younger characters to be on the same level as the old. Granted, in many places that feudal system is still very much in existence, but it's more because the governments there have structured things to keep themselves in power than any flaw in game design.
But IMHO the main reason for the huge gulf between the young and old goes back to my original post. If the early days of Cantr were some kind of golden era, the iron change was the beginning of the Dark Ages. It caused a huge setback in industry and production, allowed the wealthy to lord it over the masses, etc. And while it's now slowly getting to the point where the masses can compete again, a lot of their success is still based on the infrastructure set up in the old days.
Bowser's post actually illustrates that pretty nicely. I'd be curious to know how long his character on the deserted island would take to build a stone quarry, what with all the tools and machinery required. I assume the character in Quillanoi got the iron by working for someone else for a few years, but where did they get their iron?
That's kind of what I was referring to with my 'rotten foundation' comment. (I originally had trouble explaining what I meant, and the post was getting too long, so I had to settle for a vague metaphor.
) I assume the reason for all these huge changes was because the game was too easy, unrealistic, or unbalanced without them. Yet it was during all these easy, unrealistic, unbalanced times that many of the major cities, governments, and even individual characters came into power, and to this day many of them are still in power because of it. Not only that, but all this wealth they acquired through what are now completely invalid means continues to effect each 'generation' of newspawns (whether it's by making their lives easier or harder), and will probably continue to do so for a long, long time to come.
That's where my earlier thought on getting a fresh start comes in - I sort of think of Cantr as a big experiment, but the petri dish has been contaminated so much now that maybe it would be a good idea to start a new one.
Actually, my comment on paying for a 'blank slate' version of Cantr was mostly facetious, but now that I think about it, I wonder if we have enough of a player base to make that a possibility some day. What about two Cantrs? The current game, and a 'pay-to-play' copy of it where everyone can start over in a big untamed, unnamed wilderness. And the pay version could still get all the cool new stuff like fishing from boats and destroying buildings and the like, only changes would happen less often and be less disruptive because they're tested and balanced out in the free game first.
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creepyguyinblack
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I realize this is getting off topic, but some of this argument reminds me of a book I skimmed, "Collapse" and another book by the same author, "Guns, Germs and Steel", both about how and why certain human societies developed and succeeded in the ways that they did because of geography and the local availability of certain key resources. The author uses these examples to show why europe came about the way that it while other regions did not. I can see some of this in Cantr and this discussion. I don't think travel time should be reduced, as Jos is already trying to alleviate this by attempting to make vehicles more practical, hence the smelting change. Also, another addition already is designed to help with communication at distance. Thirdly, while it hasn't always been popular, deterioration was meant to help offset the old powers limitless supply of ancient tools and equipment by making them work to keep what they've earned or not earned, depending on your situation and viewpoint. I do think that we need a way eventually to get resources back from already made items, such as melting down your extra shield to make a lock or whatever.
In regards to the old governments being all feudal, I agree with Lumin, and I believe this reflects real world politics. Can you really just stand up and decide you want the government to change, walk to washington D.C. and instantly make a difference? No, it would take much much time, earned respect and recognition, power and wealth. It's not a perfect or ideal situation, but cantr seems to follow this.
In regards to the old governments being all feudal, I agree with Lumin, and I believe this reflects real world politics. Can you really just stand up and decide you want the government to change, walk to washington D.C. and instantly make a difference? No, it would take much much time, earned respect and recognition, power and wealth. It's not a perfect or ideal situation, but cantr seems to follow this.
“We are beginning to see intimations of this in the implantation of computer devices into the human body.”
Ray Kurzweil quotes
Ray Kurzweil quotes
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Jos Elkink
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mordiken
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Why don't we start synthesizing plastics from petroleum products? That would make us even more dependent on a single product and we could finally have toothbrushes that are not made from hog hair. Just imagine the possibilities. If you think things are so wrong why dont you volunteer to help change them?
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AoM
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Lumin, I'm in disagreement with your rotten foundation policy. So long as there is an established system, there will be an authoritative power in control of resources. So this blank slate cantr that you're suggesting would have a first generation that would develop into powerful societies that would hoard wealth. Then there would be a second generation that could choose to either strike out on their own or join and work for the first generation... about 10 generations later, you'll get to where the current cantr is today: The older people having established control, and the youth generation with nothing unless they bow to the elders.
This is the way cantr class works. Because there is no such thing as family and therefore, inheritance... the upper class is related directly to how big a group one can belong to, and the age within that group.
This is the way cantr class works. Because there is no such thing as family and therefore, inheritance... the upper class is related directly to how big a group one can belong to, and the age within that group.
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Lumin
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There would of course still be gaps between newly spawned and older characters, but not the yawning, nearly uncrossable canyon we often see now. With the changes we have now, communites would develop entirely differently.
First of all, the new game wouldn't be unbalanced so drastically by having a bunch of characters "get rich quick" at the beginning only to have that avenue completely shut off for the characters that come after. Technological development on the whole would be slower and more gradual, meaning towns will originally have to be organized with the leaders having no significant advantages over the lowly peons. If there's a long period where the best the 'Dread Lord Emporer God-King' can arm himself with is a bone spear and a wooden shield, he's going to have to make damn sure his people are happy with his rule, because it won't be long before they all have bone spears and wooden shields too.
And when the Iron Age is finally reached, it won't be just by individual characters who will then have an advantage over everyone else. As the system we have in place now requires the continued coorperation of several active chars in order to be feasible, I see the entire population of a town getting tools and weapons at about the same rate. (And then it's not the new chars that are spawned into the first manufacturing powerhouse with plenty of opportunities for work and advancement that have to worry, but their neighbors, the followers of the Dread Lord Emporer God-King with all their wimpy wooden shields...
)
Of course, anything we can write here is all just idle speculation. We'd actually have to have a 'blank' game for awhile and watch how things develop in order to know anything for sure.
First of all, the new game wouldn't be unbalanced so drastically by having a bunch of characters "get rich quick" at the beginning only to have that avenue completely shut off for the characters that come after. Technological development on the whole would be slower and more gradual, meaning towns will originally have to be organized with the leaders having no significant advantages over the lowly peons. If there's a long period where the best the 'Dread Lord Emporer God-King' can arm himself with is a bone spear and a wooden shield, he's going to have to make damn sure his people are happy with his rule, because it won't be long before they all have bone spears and wooden shields too.
And when the Iron Age is finally reached, it won't be just by individual characters who will then have an advantage over everyone else. As the system we have in place now requires the continued coorperation of several active chars in order to be feasible, I see the entire population of a town getting tools and weapons at about the same rate. (And then it's not the new chars that are spawned into the first manufacturing powerhouse with plenty of opportunities for work and advancement that have to worry, but their neighbors, the followers of the Dread Lord Emporer God-King with all their wimpy wooden shields...
)
Of course, anything we can write here is all just idle speculation. We'd actually have to have a 'blank' game for awhile and watch how things develop in order to know anything for sure.
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Bowser
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Long ago, this race for power happened in Sring-sri. In a flawed strategy, I was racing a few poeple to build a house in Nraam. The idea was to have the first ouse, to make the first smelter, to make the first iron, to make the first sabre.
Unfortunately, someone found wood in on the opposite end of the island (which I had not yet explored) and went to the iron deposit. They then made iron shields and had Bows as weapons. By the time I built my house and smelter, I went to the iron region to get my iron and was stopped cold. I had to be diplomatic and sweet talk the woman into making me the General of her army before I got some iron for my shield and my future sabre.
Long Story short... rest the game, kill the oldies, and it won't be long until someone regains power through smart moves and restrictive play. If people work together, they can be quicker at being incharge and stopping anyone else. It is not a matter of age that makes you successful, it is patience and cooperation.
Unfortunately, someone found wood in on the opposite end of the island (which I had not yet explored) and went to the iron deposit. They then made iron shields and had Bows as weapons. By the time I built my house and smelter, I went to the iron region to get my iron and was stopped cold. I had to be diplomatic and sweet talk the woman into making me the General of her army before I got some iron for my shield and my future sabre.
Long Story short... rest the game, kill the oldies, and it won't be long until someone regains power through smart moves and restrictive play. If people work together, they can be quicker at being incharge and stopping anyone else. It is not a matter of age that makes you successful, it is patience and cooperation.
Homer wrote: "Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. "
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Nick
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olaf
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Honestly, people whinge a lot...
I've only been playing since June. At that time, iron was made pretty similarly to how it is now. The chars that care have had no difficulty in getting where they want to, although they are only 24-25 and have a long way to go...
In short, I don't see this "unbridgeable gap" between rich and poor, not that that's actually the point of the game at all.
So the Cantr economy's based on iron and its raw resources... Well, our economy's based on pieces of paper. I'd like things like clothing to have a bit more food, so that one charrie can stop running around helplessly trying to offload his 13kg of hide...
But take it from a newer player - it's not that unacheivable to go where you want!
I've only been playing since June. At that time, iron was made pretty similarly to how it is now. The chars that care have had no difficulty in getting where they want to, although they are only 24-25 and have a long way to go...
In short, I don't see this "unbridgeable gap" between rich and poor, not that that's actually the point of the game at all.
So the Cantr economy's based on iron and its raw resources... Well, our economy's based on pieces of paper. I'd like things like clothing to have a bit more food, so that one charrie can stop running around helplessly trying to offload his 13kg of hide...
But take it from a newer player - it's not that unacheivable to go where you want!
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Blackdeath
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Exactly, the thing is this is a slow-paced game, and people simply do not have th patience. I have chars waiting 5 to 10 years for their plans to form and they're still not there yet. To me thats the best part-the struggle. As for the older generation, think of that--older. They are slowly dieing off, leaving the newer generation to dowhat they want, they can either follow in line with the old decrepits or start out a new. You can do anything if you're patient and committed
---------------
"Genius has its limitations. Stupidity is not thus handicapped."
1120-7: You are killed by a moose.
1120-7: You see a man in his thirties hurt a moose using a
longbow.
"Genius has its limitations. Stupidity is not thus handicapped."
1120-7: You are killed by a moose.
1120-7: You see a man in his thirties hurt a moose using a
longbow.
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