So, what makes a successful town/character?

[SekoETC]

Umm, define successful. If it's by equipment, maybe Pharap is my most successful character. A lazy junker who only works so that he could get an easier life in the future. He has an iron shield and all the basic tools, he can decide things concerning the workshop intependantly, but still clings to calling his working partner a boss. One of the characters I tend to forget.
In a way Maline should now be a heir to all the riches in a certain place since she's the only one alive of those who worked there. But of course if the killers are ever defeated, I doubt that she'll have anything of it, good if she can even keep her life. Even if she gained all the riches in the world, she would still be a broken girl, only waiting for joining a certain someone in the afterlife, yet too afraid of pain to speed her death.

I seldom think about success, for my characters keeping their sanity seems to be a goal big enough. Most of them are also seeking for love, with oh so many times ending up in tragedies. They would rather live a happy life farming potatoes with a true love than turning into a rich leader. Depends on the character though.

[The Sociologist]

Maybe it's just me...but I've never really cared for Cantr culture. At least not in its more showy forms, like the singing and books and such of the KDS region. All it does for me is annoy. All active characters are needed to drive things forward...not write poor prose and broadcast weak verse. It just doesn't deal with any problems that actually exist.

But that's a horrific point of view! I'm surprised at you. Indeed, paleoanthropological evidence of cultural artifacts is how we delineate the origin of modern man, how we define "human" itself. Culture is the basis of the idea of belonging, and ultimately of this "driving things forward" that you mention.

Have you noticed how much people talk about MacGregors here. Why? It's because they are different. Someone says "MacGregor"... People respond "Ah". Someone says "Nossé"... People respond "Ah".

Try and find one word that defines the "culture" of Seatown Forest, if any. You cannot. Even as a capitalist you should understand the concept of "branding", of name recognition. Well, there are political versions of that as well.

And as for your idea of "sheep", well, if you think you can get a "sheep" to stay indoors for the 1 Cantr year it now takes to make a crossbow, switching projects just about every day, and not fall asleep, without that sense of cultural belonging, then good luck to you.
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[rklenseth]

My oldest characters are now 23. Two already have steel weapons, four have iron shields, three more have longbows, one has a composite recurve bow, and two more have wooden shields...old.

I'm a little worried about how you characterize success here. Sure, my Deputy Sheriff obtained a community iron shield and comp. recurve bow when he was two days old, and two of my female characters received the same by age 22.

On the other hand, two characters recognized as 'local leaders' by communities of 6-10 people by age 23, and into whose activities I have put much effort, still live in the bone and stone age. And my most successful trading character, by far my wealthiest in personal terms, carries a plethora of tools but only a wooden shield and will probably never carry a weapon.

Finally, looking beyond these youngsters of ours, Taowyn wears only an iron shield but neither weapon nor special clothes. Yet what rating would people place on his "success"? What would be the fate of anyone who attacked him?

The whole point, I think, is that success takes many forms.
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I was just trying to point out that quite a few of my characters have already integrated themselves into the societies they were spawned in and already have gained access to materials like steel, iron, etc... I think that is one of the things you were trying to say is so hard about this game.

Anyways, I don't really measure the success or failure of my characters. They, my characters in their world, have successes and victories as well as failures and defeats but all those are just the filling between them spawning and them dying. I see my characters more as a story to be written rather than how can I make them a successful character. I create my character's personality and then I throw them into the world and allow their experiences and personality to drive their actions and their words and their thoughts and that really all depends on the actions, words, thoughts, experiences, and personalities of other characters that they meet along the way of their story in life. So I just simply let my character's live their lives. And when they die they die. I miss them but their story is over and it is time for a new story to begin.

[ephiroll]

DoUrden Estates mastered the hit and run in small groups tatic that destroyed the Alexian Empire's Grand Army. Now pirate groups have taken that same page from DoUrden's book and are using it with ships instead and have committed devastating blows against whole civilizations.

I think DoUrden just made it "popular", they were the turning point between certain players using hit and run tactics and when it became the norm for everyone to use them. Now it seems that no one has any other way of launching an attack.

[creepyguyinblack]

I think that the strict culture and ethic of the Alexian (Lad) Empire is what has held it together through so much turmoil and dangers in its long life. Other cities and governments that allow much more freedom or are less defined seem to have a greater chance of fading away. In the Empire, cultural identity is important and it gives everyone an overriding objective, to serve and better the Empire.

[The Industriallist]

Maybe it's just me...but I've never really cared for Cantr culture. At least not in its more showy forms, like the singing and books and such of the KDS region. All it does for me is annoy. All active characters are needed to drive things forward...not write poor prose and broadcast weak verse. It just doesn't deal with any problems that actually exist.

But that's a horrific point of view! I'm surprised at you. Indeed, paleoanthropological evidence of cultural artifacts is how we delineate the origin of modern man, how we define "human" itself. Culture is the basis of the idea of belonging, and ultimately of this "driving things forward" that you mention.

IRL, you can claim that's true, though I am not convinced. And I have no inclination to assume people who study culture for a living are good judges of it's importance. But in cantr...people become loyal, cooperate, etc. without a trace of actual culture...see later in this post.

Have you noticed how much people talk about MacGregors here. Why? It's because they are different. Someone says "MacGregor"... People respond "Ah". Someone says "Nossé"... People respond "Ah".

First of all...people responding to a name does not indicate anything good about it. It just means they force everyone to notice them, generally with expository RP. And of course the MacGregors actually get most of their recognition for insane behavior and massive semi-unjustified violence towards newspawns. Which is 'different' I admit.

Try and find one word that defines the "culture" of Seatown Forest, if any. You cannot. Even as a capitalist you should understand the concept of "branding", of name recognition. Well, there are political versions of that as well.

I'm sure there are. But your example works against you...I expect Seatown Forest is the most powerful location in the region. Drojf certainly isn't despite housing the Nosse (and not all my associations with them are positive...). The MacGregors might be, but their 'culture' for the more part just seems to weaken them by making them look like dangerous idiots to everyone else.

I'm familiar with the concept of branding (though I think it works mainly on the weakminded...and why am I always taken as a capitallist?) but I'm not clear on how it applies to town organization.

And as for your idea of "sheep", well, if you think you can get a "sheep" to stay indoors for the 1 Cantr year it now takes to make a crossbow, switching projects just about every day, and not fall asleep, without that sense of cultural belonging, then good luck to you.
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Being awake is a matter for the player of the sheep to determine. I've no idea what in-character would influence that. But I can say that cultural belonging (in any sense relating to 'cantr culture') is not needed. AHMC? No culture. TBR? No culture, I think. Quillanoi? Culture, I'll grant, but I don't think it has much to do with the few novels lying around.

Basically...I know by observation that in a place with no culture, you can get sheep to work for extended periods, ant that that is the basis of the rise of nearly all powerful groups. I know by observation that culture effects me (and often my characters because of the inherent excusivity they start on the outside of) in a primarily negative manner, and certainly doesn't induce loyalty.

I think a key thing you need to note is that real culture has a natural source somewhere, a long history, and indoctrination from an early age. Cantr culture exists, in every case but (possibly) one that I can think of, from people deciding to spice up their (strangely) dreary cantr lives by pulling in OOC bits of culture that they can wave around. Also relates to the 'oh look at me, I can RP!' effect, where people are desperate to graft some irrationality onto their character so that they can have expository RP. (not all RP is like this, but I do see it happening a lot)
I don't include certain pieces of culture in this...really good ones like Mailly Yum's song do have valid IC basis.

In a nutshell...you forget that cantr is a very, very young world. Some of the first generation are still alive and kicking. Culture without background comes from OOC, not IC. And most of our 'culture' is not generated by the early generations with enough experience to legitimately generate it.

[SekoETC]

[quote="The Industriallist"]And of course the MacGregors actually get most of their recognition for insane behavior and massive semi-unjustified violence towards newspawns.[/quite]

Now how did I not see any unjustified hostile actions towards newspawns in all those years? The laws are clearly posted, if you break them you are punished as it says. If you behave alright, you can get food and shelter, and work to gain other stuff and maybe a chance to join the clan later. No one is forced to join, many people have walked away with a nice load of carrots - then they complain that they had to address people with respect, how terrible! The problem is that most people who complain about the MacGregors have not seen the life inside the castle. Ok you have, but probably just picking up the bad sides. The thing is when people keep spreading their one-sided image of things, the OOC attitude gets stick into people's heads and if they happen to get a character there they most likely run away or try to cause trouble and get killed, adding the bad reputation.

[The Industriallist]

I said semi-unjustified, and that's what I meant. I've seen the MacGregors up close and pretty clearly, and I think I more or less understand them. On the other hand, their internal behaviour can't be used to justify their external actions...that doesn't make sense.

Yes, they only kill people too dumb to read their laws. Which is a decent justification. Against that is that their laws are psychotic...especially with regard to killing people who don't respect them. None of my characters really respect them the way they demand, but they can/could pass for it as needed.

So I agree that if they kill you it's your own fault. But that doesn't prevent it from also being their fault.

[The Sociologist]

So I agree that if they kill you it's your own fault. But that doesn't prevent it from also being their fault.

Oh no, not an anti-MacGregor thread yet again

Are we not confusing IC and OOC here? I had a character who actually broke one of their laws when passing through - more or less. He announced himself outside allright, but when passing through the main hall of the Castle to reach the library, he forgot to announce himself there.

So two MacGregor women came through to the library. Bear in mind the poor sod had inadvertently displayed classical "note thief" behavior up to that point, was a handful of days old and was wearing nothing at all. Did they bash him with sabers? No. Did they drag him? No. Did they just shout a few words? No.

What the players did--and this is the OOC part since it's about the players themselves--is stage a marvellous little scenario for their charries about wandering who he was and whether he could understand them and so on, complete with furrowing of brows and shaking of heads, and so on.

And when I went back online, my poor charrie had some explaining to do and fast too, because they came back online, so it all happened real-time and I had to type like crazy. So the OOC part is that those who play MacGregors are very good roleplayers, and you have to keep up and make something of your character.

Now the IC part is that, yes, poor Zaro got a tonguelashing--which he doubtless deserved. And yes, he knows now that MacGregors are strict, perhaps even harsh. But they paid him attention, noticed him, paid him at least the respect of wanting to know what made him tick. And then left him alone in their library for days afterwards to study "history". Contra the entire town of Krif, which scorned and ignored him.

So, being now much impressed by Glen Morangie's Tales--which he takes to be an irrefutably true account of the Heroes who shaped this world--he's gradually begun distributing copies as far as Zhift Forest and doubtless Baaak in due time.
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[The Sociologist]

...I expect Seatown Forest is the most powerful location in the region. Drojf certainly isn't despite housing the Nosse (and not all my associations with them are positive...). The MacGregors might be, but their 'culture' for the more part just seems to weaken them by making them look like dangerous idiots to everyone else.

Are you not perhaps yourself living in the past? It was you who said that the age of heroes is past, so follow it through. We are possibly looking at larger armies rather than just a handful of "elders". But then just how many people would actually fight for the Seatown Forest? Unless something amazing has happened there in the past few days, then the last impression I got was that almost the entire population is transient. For that matter I see no sign of anyone continuing Jo Jo's carrots-for-residents policy, and of course mushrooms are no longer proof against hunger.

(And as for Drojf, I never claimed that the Nossé were a temporal power.)

I'm familiar with the concept of branding (though I think it works mainly on the weakminded...and why am I always taken as a capitallist?) but I'm not clear on how it applies to town organization.

"Heil Hitler" = branding. Sure we all keep insisting that it was a really dreadful example of "culture", if at all. Yet a majority of people still have a glued-to-the-screen fixation with those old newsreels. I used an extreme example just for effect.

Ghandi's loincloth = branding. Remember, he started out as a sleekly dressed lawyer.

And at a facile and trivial level just about everything that happens in the US--in every sphere--involves branding, from politics to sport to religion to town parades. Your average British soccer crowd is an example of a phenomenon at least 40,000 and possibly a staggering 200,000 years old - ie in our genes.

Being awake is a matter for the player of the sheep to determine....

That comes dangerously close to the concept of mule characters. Even a sheep should have a life, form some kind of personality, and react in accordance with it. If not, then the player is playing badly. All your sheep should ask themselves "Am I a happy sheep?" As an exercise, do it now.

Culture without background comes from OOC, not IC. And most of our 'culture' is not generated by the early generations with enough experience to legitimately generate it.

That's because power used to be one guy in town with a saber and all the keys. Jos is working at undoing that. He's been partially successful, though unfortunately he's upset some really good roleplayers along the way. So it's been very uneven. Some definite errors.

But I'm generally in agreement with the basic principles. It means that your thinking about sources of motivation needs to change.
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[The Industriallist]

...I expect Seatown Forest is the most powerful location in the region. Drojf certainly isn't despite housing the Nosse (and not all my associations with them are positive...). The MacGregors might be, but their 'culture' for the more part just seems to weaken them by making them look like dangerous idiots to everyone else.

Are you not perhaps yourself living in the past? It was you who said that the age of heroes is past, so follow it through. We are possibly looking at larger armies rather than just a handful of "elders". But then just how many people would actually fight for the Seatown Forest? Unless something amazing has happened there in the past few days, then the last impression I got was that almost the entire population is transient. For that matter I see no sign of anyone continuing Jo Jo's carrots-for-residents policy, and of course mushrooms are no longer proof against hunger.

(And as for Drojf, I never claimed that the Nossé were a temporal power.)

As opposed to the hordes of people who will fight for the MacGregors, say...and numbers still don't evermatch equipment, exactly. Also, while one crossbow isn't as strong as it once was...SF can have a bunch of them. And they do have friends, associates, and people willing to fight for a weapon of their own, say.

I'm familiar with the concept of branding (though I think it works mainly on the weakminded...and why am I always taken as a capitallist?) but I'm not clear on how it applies to town organization.

"Heil Hitler" = branding. Sure we all keep insisting that it was a really dreadful example of "culture", if at all. Yet a majority of people still have a glued-to-the-screen fixation with those old newsreels. I used an extreme example just for effect.

Ghandi's loincloth = branding. Remember, he started out as a sleekly dressed lawyer.

And at a facile and trivial level just about everything that happens in the US--in every sphere--involves branding, from politics to sport to religion to town parades. Your average British soccer crowd is an example of a phenomenon at least 40,000 and possibly a staggering 200,000 years old - ie in our genes.

Yay. Many people are stupid, puttyminded slaves to those who know how to control them. Alarming, but not exactly news...

Now lets get back to the actual topic...Cantr. 'towns' and even cities have <100 people. People aren't awake at the same time, so things seldom happen quickly. The average cantr player isn't stupid, and the average character isn't either (unmotivated maybe, but not stupid). They don't inspire against their own interests easily. See the astounding success of the DHW 'nationallists', for example.

Being awake is a matter for the player of the sheep to determine....

That comes dangerously close to the concept of mule characters. Even a sheep should have a life, form some kind of personality, and react in accordance with it. If not, then the player is playing badly. All your sheep should ask themselves "Am I a happy sheep?" As an exercise, do it now.

Of course they should. Now, I actually don't have any sheep...I never really have (with one possible exception...a bit of a weak character, really, but improving now). This is because I have never understood the motivation of the most important type of sheep characters.

To expand:
Type 1 sheep: Farm food. Maybe they talk, maybe they don't, but they don't seem to care about anything higher than food to eat (and maybe immaterial goals that can somehow be attained without traveling or doing anything.
Type 2 sheep: Will work for tools, clothes, whatever. Don't seem to care about being payed commensurate to their work...just want to have a job and something to show for it. You can buy them for years with a trowel. Also may work just to have the use of their employer's equipment. They certainly don't tend to quit work much... I've never remotely understood these sheep, but they exist to the great benefit of practically all major organizations.
Type 3 sheep: These ones I can kind of understand...they don't do much for themselves, but throw themselves into community work without any reasonable expectation of returns. Make one of my character's very nervious, though...he can't understand people doing things that don't help them any. (a bit of an internal problem with the character in a way)

This is just something I've pulled out of thin air...

Culture without background comes from OOC, not IC. And most of our 'culture' is not generated by the early generations with enough experience to legitimately generate it.

That's because power used to be one guy in town with a saber and all the keys. Jos is working at undoing that. He's been partially successful, though unfortunately he's upset some really good roleplayers along the way. So it's been very uneven. Some definite errors.

I don't see what that has to do with it...oh...maybe I do...you're saying that most culture is OOC and not produced by the people who ought to generate it because they haven't needed it to keep their hold on power yet? That is incredibly, terrifyingly cynical. It may, perhaps, be right...but I'd never look at it from that kind of perspective. *shudders*

But I'm generally in agreement with the basic principles. It means that your thinking about sources of motivation needs to change.
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I don't know what principles you mean. I don't know what you think my thinking is. But could you concieve of the possibility that I'm right?

About the Mac Gregors...I never said they didn't have good RPers. I never said there was any problem with their existance. I did say that they're outright insane, individually and collectively (except any cynical wolves hiding among them...) And that statement I hold to. They kill over an offense that they both invented and have themselves honed and used often...they expect people to worship them and kiss their feet everywhere, while not doing anyone any good...they believe (or pretend to) in an extensive mythology pulled out of Gregor Mac Gregor's malfunctioning mind. This is insanity, some of it criminal. That is my OOC perspective. My character whose knowledge it's based on would have difficulty even thinking something so direct.

As for Krif...I don't like Krif, and I don't have a clue what it runs on. It's (often) not a nice place. And one more newspawn is far beneath their notice. I would think legitimately so unless he had something really significant to say.

[Pirog]

The Industriallist>

I think a part of why you and me play Cantr so differently is that you apply your own OOC knowledge and feelings to your characters.

Pretty much everyone who plays Cantr and lives in our modern society feels that people like the Mac Gregors or The Lad Empire are wrong...so if you spawn a character there or live in a town occupied by such forces you get a natural urge to resist them or run away.
The thing is that such a feeling is motivated partly because you don't take any risks with your life...since this is just a game. IRL it is a fact that most people bend under the control of their leaders almost regardless of how they rule, as long as they feel that they aren't in any immediate danger.

If children were implemented and people would have families and relatives to care for I think we would see a more natural development where people wouldn't just pack up and leave as soon as the living conditions changes from good to bad.

Oh, and regarding Krif I don't agree. They are greeting newspawns quite well there, but it seems that a lot of people don't want to settle down there just because they know that there are more resource rich areas in the rest of the region.
There are plenty of oppurtunities to get a good position while your character is still in his early twenties...but that doesn't include the people who wake up and ask "what do I have to do to get a sabre and an iron shield"

[Anthony Roberts]

I think that the strict culture and ethic of the Alexian (Lad) Empire is what has held it together through so much turmoil and dangers in its long life. Other cities and governments that allow much more freedom or are less defined seem to have a greater chance of fading away. In the Empire, cultural identity is important and it gives everyone an overriding objective, to serve and better the Empire.

What exactly do you mean by this, TJ? "More freedom or are less defined"?

Let's take Plaekur Forest East for an example. Their government is three people. Their population is 10, or so. They have no past history or culture, most of the people there are sleeping idiots that end up dying. Is this what you mean? In PFE, freedom is there, and they're not defined.

Let's take Olipifirovash West for another example. Their government consists of one person, the King, and three people as the law enforcement. Their population is around 65, outside alone, and I'd estimate 15+ indoors or so, I don't know, but there are a lot of buildings. They have a lot of freedom, there's only what, one law? Do they have much of a history to define them? Well, not really, no. It's just a city that you can do as you please. Does that mean that this place is worse than the Alexian Empire because they have no goal?

Man, what was the point that I was getting at?

Oh yeah, success.

Success can't be defined, in any terms, really. Aside from the very basic "To be praised for past doings" or something along those lines. Krif is successful, because they have pleanty of active players, good role playing, etc. The MacGregors are successful, for the same reasons. Olipifirovash West is successful, they have an industrialized economy, with lots of active people, and wealth is a common attribute of citizens among the city. Alenz Hills is NOT successful, as they're inactive and boring, no role play - Yes, they have a history that could be written down, as does Lad (Which is also not successful for the same reasons), but who's going to read it? The population of both empires is so low and thin...

I feel success is determined by the amount of freedom and activity. If Lad were run more like Olipifirovash West (Ie: Not kill people for starting a rice project without permission...) then I'm sure Lad would grow in population, develop a culture, and essentially become successful. But because they have so little people, and so little activity, it's boring... there's no culture... there's no RP... there's no success.

Success doesn't need to be measured in material wealth.

[swymir]

But that s LAd's culture. If they started not killing people for starting a rice project then it would lose that culture. I think you are wrong about Lad not being succesful. Sure it isn't as powerful as it once was, but it is so much different then any other place in Cantr.

[kroner]

The Industriallist>

I think a part of why you and me play Cantr so differently is that you apply your own OOC knowledge and feelings to your characters.

Watch your words.
Do you understand implications of this statement? You're saying that your OOC knowledge and feelings are not applied to your characters. Now I will deconstruct this claim.

Every action that a cantr character performs is dictated by the player. There is no way araound this. Every thought, statement, etc of a character must come from the mind of the player. There can be no other source. Therefore all cantr character knowlegde, personality and feelings are based on player knowledge and feelings. How can player knowledge and feelings not be "applied" if they are the only source of a characters personality? You are not exempt. There's no magical new sentient being that's created when you hit the big smiley face button, only a new partition being added to your own mind.