Roadmap

[Chrissy]

Have you ever read a book, and it was really great, then a movie version came out and when you saw the movie it was so disapointing. The movie never compares to the book. That's all I'm afraid of. All of you know what you're talking about and think it's a good idea though so I'm with ya, lol. I'd want you to trust my opinion on something I knew about so I trust all of yours.

Chrissy

[The Sociologist]

This would mean that people download a client program to log in to Cantr, which would be written in either C++ or Java.

Microsoft and Sun appear to be at war. Certainly their products engage in battle on my computer. No Java for me.

This client program would be more graphical, initially 2D and for Cantr 3.0 3D, and the style of the game would thus quite dramatically change.

...and so would the player base. Yes, you may get more people playing, but would they have the maturity to handle a scenario with no secure banking or trading, no NPC's, no auto-policing, and so on? Compare Ultima Online. Your current player base is remarkably mature, irrespective of actual age, and also very literate. Certainly, speaking for myself, I don't require more graphics.

What I would really like to see is that characters (and animals, vehicles, etc.) could walk freely on the map, without being restricted to the roads. This would also mean they can build anywhere, drop goods anywhere, dig for resources anywhere, etc.

I don't see any particular need for this. It is difficult enough in some areas to maintain an adequate active population, and this plan would cause existing societies to fragment. What I would like to see is "waystations" on the existing roads between between towns. No resources, no buildings, but hunting, building of firepits and simple storage units like mailboxes, usual outdoor simple-tool projects, a place to exchange goods between characters, and so on. These waystations might also connect to each other via secondary roads. This would have an impact on between-town banditry, need for policing and patrols, and so on, and considerably enhance movement and bypassing given towns. There should be very little programming or system cost.

I would like to already implement the animals as walking around freely. The animals would just be visible on a location whenever they are near. This would be a nice way perhaps for us to experiment with this free walking idea without altering much of the interface. It would also mean, however, that a large percentage of the animals would be basically invisible / out of reach, which would perhaps reduce the animal population too much for those areas where people are dependent on meat for their food.

Again, I don't see the need for this. My current requirements are for the estabishment of a better-balanced ecology. It seems to be a question of indigenous herbivores being better related to the food supply and also breeding faster in some areas, and then predators better balanced with the herbivores. There should be population caps with animals breeding faster at low populations and slowing as they approach the caps. Currently you can have no humans, almost no herbivores and 15 lions (my standard rant).

Some resources should be of a fixed size. One area containing that resource could have a fixed amount of that resource available and thus this resource can be emptied. An example would be gold or oil.

I don't much like this idea, since it simply benefits long-established characters yet more. However, it could be implemented even in the current map up to a point if carefully combined with such features as prospecting and deep-level mining options to extend utilization. I would see it as a slow tailing off in productivity rather than an abrupt halt.

Some resources should be planted or possible to be moved. E.g. potatoes could be brought to other areas and planted. For this kind of resource, we should have some wild versions occuring at random places, and have large areas that have the potential for this resource. But it would require preparing the land and putting the seeds to actually get the resource. (This will also mean that land is required for farming etc., thus land scarcity will be implemented and is a crucial element
of this whole scheme.)

This could be implemented even in the current scheme, by way of a division into common tillage and private fields. Private fields would be something like buildings in implementation, inside which you can harvest that one resource at a higher rate. Perhaps even plant it. The number of such fields would be limited. Commonage is where everyone can harvest, but the rate goes down the more people are actively harvesting there at the time.

The above also relates to animals, which should eat resources on locations where they are and where the depletion of those resources should affect the movements or lives of those animals.

This I like, and it relates to my comments on ecology above.

Buildings will gradually be changed to having walls and ceiling and floors etc. so that people can design their own models. How to do that kind of stuff text-based instead of graphically, I don't know yet. So far, I think, all I mentioned is possible with text only.

I very much agree with this. I also favor the idea of dressing up buildings using marble, bronze and similar. My highest priority request is for building-nameplates and the ability to change them. This could be implemented via a hierarchy of nameplates from simple wood to eg gold-plated bronze, with a higher-value plate only being replaceable by a plate of similar quality or higher. This would remove the annoyance of "graffiti artists" for elite characters. Misnamed buildings is a really significant problem for me, and in some areas is quite seriously harming my playing experience.

Babies. ... It will be hugely welcomed by many players, I think, if we finish this.

Not really so much by me. If forced to be a baby, I hereby promise to be a noisy, filthy and hugely disgusting one.

Item deterioriation. Although not high on my personal priority list, it is high on that of many players, so it should be implemented sometime soon.

Very much welcomed. This should be one of the highest priorities.

Furniture. A more minor thread, but characters should be able to sit down or lay down and this should affect energy mainly.

Yes.

The projects table should get an additional field stating what skill helps for that project and this field should be set by the code wherever a project is started or in the objecttypes table for manufacturing that type of objects.

Yes.

Overall, I'm not much concerned about the decision to abandon Cantr 2.0. I believe there is still huge potential for development of the current version. Suffice it to say that free-ranging movement wasn't even on my radar screen and I still don't really see any need for it. Waystations would be nice though. My priorities are as follows:

1. More visibility of clothing and appearance (eg whenever you whisper to someone, short descriptions should appear).
2. Item deterioration.
3. Balanced animal ecology.
4. Building improvements / nameplates / cemetaries & monuments.
5. Bonus to balanced eating of cooked foods / possible slow rotting of uncooked food stores even indoors.
6. Skills for projects.
7. Usable furniture.
8. Between-town waystations.
9. Fields and farming.
...
...
98. Hair and eye color.
99. Babies.
.

[myst]

Very interesting and appealing! I have a question though.

Will the current "Time happens slowly in Cantr" philosophy still apply? Will we be able to only log in once a day to keep characters happy? Will we have to give programs for them to behave reasonably? (Will my character finish digging stone and then just stand there getting tired? Or can I tell him to go sleep on his bed when he finishes? How??) Combat taking days will look darn silly if the world is geographically accurate and conbatants keep wandering home for naps! But the alternative might be making characters semi-autonomous aka Sims, which I'm sure will not appeal to everyone.

If online time required changes much, they Cantr will be an almost exact copy of the other "resource collecting" RPGs out there. Maintaining Cantr's simplicity to play is very hard and I'd be interested to know how much of a priority that is.

[Pirog]

I don't think it would be so bad with it taking more time to move between villages and not meeting as many people on the road. In the past it could be a big project just to walk to the nearest town, and in a free-roaming world I think the population would be a lot less inclined to just go out and explore the world as soon as they are spawned, and that is a good thing in my eyes. You would have more stable communities, where everyone didn't dart for the nearest resource rich region as soon as they find out where it is.

But Myst has a very good point about the combat system. It seems hard to combine the current system with an open free-roaming world.

[Jos Elkink]

I have a question though.

*A* question?

Will the current "Time happens slowly in Cantr" philosophy still apply?

What do you mean?

Will we be able to only log in once a day to keep characters happy?

How would this be related to the roadmap ideas? And again, what exactly do you mean?

Will we have to give programs for them to behave reasonably? (Will my character finish digging stone and then just stand there getting tired? Or can I tell him to go sleep on his bed when he finishes? How??) Combat taking days will look darn silly if the world is geographically accurate and conbatants keep wandering home for naps! But the alternative might be making characters semi-autonomous aka Sims, which I'm sure will not appeal to everyone.

I definitely don't want semi-autonomous character aka the Sims. It is what makes the Sims boring to me, even though in other aspects it's a really cool game (e.g. how they have a detailed world - not only the idea of bars comes from them, also the cells are inspired by them ...). But perhaps make your char automatically do something after something else is finished is an option. Might be difficult to implement properly, though.

But how would the current combat system not be compatible with the roadmap?

If online time required changes much, they Cantr will be an almost exact copy of the other "resource collecting" RPGs out there.

Can you explain that? What is 'online time required changes'? What RPGs - do you have examples?

Maintaining Cantr's simplicity to play is very hard and I'd be interested to know how much of a priority that is.

A high priority.

[myst]

Well, you have reassured me about the simplicity and that is probably enough

I was concerned that the changes would require a lot more interaction with the characters to get them to perform optimally. If space is real then getting characters to be able to talk to someone whilst working may be awkward, as might getting them to rest after they work in the right place and as realism increases, so too will these issues. I foresee lots of "oh I'm tired - go back to my house (takes time once everything is spatial) brush teeth, go to toilet (keeps those dirtiness levels down!) go to bed" - for each character - and therefore taking a lot of time.

The combat system isn't strictly incompatible - but presumably you'd have to be close to hit someone. What if you told your character to go to them, and they moved? You might chase them for days in a small area - eadch time you wanted to strike them (many times over days). The extra time taken for moving around in this way is going to be an issue. A solution is to make small distances instantaneous to move, or for the hit command to follow the victim for some distance. Or I'm sure there are other, better ways.

What I meant was, if all of this happens, then we will be required to play Cantr in sessions of hours or so, in the manner of "normal RPGS". (I've played Daimonin and Eternal Lands, but I've heard on the forums about ones with permanent characters aka Cantr.) Cantr has something they do not - I think maybe the text based nature - that means that people actually RP here, rather than just playing a resource gathering game.

Hope that more fully explains my "question"! I know Cantr will remain great, I was just wondering if all of the implications of the changes had been resolved. I have faith though!

[Razorlance]

Funny thing that, I speculated on the idea of free walking not so long ago, among other things, *coughs* rivers *coughs* here...

http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3484

Great minds must think a like eh.

[rklenseth]

I'm very scared about the idea of being able to walk anywhere and everywhere. It could be good, could be bad, right now Im just scared of it. (My biggest concern being that people won't want to stay in old towns anymore, and that current societies will be *poof.* When it's already very hard sometimes to get people to settle in a town and maintain a job....Well, not sure if this concern applies here..)

I think if Resource Department continue to break down objects into parts, object deterioation, more tools needed to build and specialized tools to build certain things, resources like ores to be more rare and to be able to use up people will have to remain in a group in order to survive and progress as a society or they will never get anywhere. Also it would get very boring after a while if you are out in the middle of the wilderness by your lonesome self.

Jos, I love all of your ideas and I can't wait to see them implemented. If you need my help at all I'm here. I'm not sure what I can do but if I can do it I will try my best to find time to do it.

Also, my advice for solving the animal problem could be to raise their reproduction rates so that there is still a large amount of them in the current locations but also so that many of them can migrate out into the new wilderness and populate it before people being traveling out there. Plus I think if animals now have to eat that we won't have to worry about overpopulation because they'll just eat themselves to death. Circle of life kind of thing so now animal population can regulate themselves and if need be the Cantrians can regulate it if it affects them later by killing off populations like we do in real life.

Well, good luck, Jos.

[rklenseth]

Funny thing that, I speculated on the idea of free walking not so long ago, among other things, *coughs* rivers *coughs* here...

http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3484

Great minds must think a like eh.

Freewalking idea has been around for a while, friend. Also see topics about grid system which was the other idea of freewalking back a while ago.

[Pirog]

It will be much more interesting from a criminal perspective.

With the free-roaming system the towns could be safe behind walls, while gangs of bandits and hunted fugitives could be lurking out in the wilderness.

[myst]

A WARNING FOR ALLOWING ANIMALS TO EAT EACH OTHER:

The Lotka-Volterra Equation and Chaos.

The predators will not get to a sensible limit and then stop reproducing. They might well eat everything and then die out themselves. It is spatial aspects that stop this happening in reality, and Cantr locations are too big for this.

It will be possible to get it right if you set it up properly but care is needed. Trust me. I'm a mathematician. *looks sheepinsh*

[formerly known as hf]

myst>

was about to post something of the same nature, then I saw yours - I'm no mathematician, but I'm well aware of the problems of creating an artificial ecosystem that will reach an equilibrium...

It might need to be a case of sticking to only herbivores to start with - adding predators could see the whole animal kingdom wiped out very quickly...

[Agar]

I think if Resource Department continue to break down objects into parts, object deterioation, more tools needed to build and specialized tools to build certain things, resources like ores to be more rare and to be able to use up people will have to remain in a group in order to survive and progress as a society or they will never get anywhere.

In every society, there are outcasts, deviants, people who refuse to conform and who chafe at the presence of others. Are we planning to make that impossible, to make it to where even the most well equipped person cannot live by themself? Even new characters sometimes decide that they don't like where they are or who's around. If they will die if they leave, how can that be a fair simulation of society?

[Pirog]

Agar>

I have seen nothing that suggests such a development...

[Oasis]

The current road system would still be in place, so unless they choose to go off into the wilderness, and possibly get lost, my assumption is that the game would allow them to move from one town to another, even if the towns aren't quite the same, as they can now.