Governments

[kroner]

The government in Karnon Forest is turning out interestingly. It basically does nothing except ensure that no other organization takes power. And by "nothing", I don't mean they do lots of pointless crap, I mean they really do nearly nothing and make no further claims.
It's not really how I planned it, but it actually works rather well.

and it's democratic. whoo!

[The Sociologist]

I know theres a lot of different government styles in various places of Cantr, and I was wondering how many of each there were.

Well, like I posted in the Clan thread, power depends on a combination of lockable buildings and the steel/iron weapons/shields needed to protect them. All governments I've seen so far are oligarchies of older established characters, defined as "government by a few, especially by a small faction of persons or families".

It therefore depends on the number of active characters with a power base whether you have something closer to a dictatorship, or something closer to a Medieval incorporated town, which in this game tends to be called a "republic".

Try Drojf. The laws are mostly simple, but while there are no regular elections there is provision for a vote to demand new elections, which according to law could occur at any time. With an elected 3-part executive/legeslative branch and direct democratic legislation options, I don't see how you can say it isn't a real democratic government.

For a liberal democratic government to work, you need a separation of powers. Since you yourself mention an executive/legislative branch as one thing, and there is likewise no independent judiciary, then you cannot argue that there is a separation of powers.

On the other hand, if you go for the direct democracy of classical Athens, then the entire population would meet in the town square to discuss policy itself, and to vote for policy proposals directly.

One of my would-be trading characters tried to discover what the town's economy was like and what its needs were, but was told by a councillor that she didn't actually know. I'm not sure whether Drojf even has an economy, but if it does then the government would seem to have no knowledge of it.
.

[kroner]

that's not unusual. economy is sparse in cantr. it makes me sad.

[The Industriallist]

I know theres a lot of different government styles in various places of Cantr, and I was wondering how many of each there were.

Well, like I posted in the Clan thread, power depends on a combination of lockable buildings and the steel/iron weapons/shields needed to protect them. All governments I've seen so far are oligarchies of older established characters, defined as "government by a few, especially by a small faction of persons or families".

It therefore depends on the number of active characters with a power base whether you have something closer to a dictatorship, or something closer to a Medieval incorporated town, which in this game tends to be called a "republic".

I rarely see that, actually. Certain areas in the Tirqi/Brunoi/Siom area run along such lines, like Lake Village and some of the forests. Most other places have a brand of Oligarchy by a 'council' or some such (undemocratic) ruling body which may or may not favor established characters from the outside. And of course dictatorships.

Try Drojf. The laws are mostly simple, but while there are no regular elections there is provision for a vote to demand new elections, which according to law could occur at any time. With an elected 3-part executive/legeslative branch and direct democratic legislation options, I don't see how you can say it isn't a real democratic government.

For a liberal democratic government to work, you need a separation of powers. Since you yourself mention an executive/legislative branch as one thing, and there is likewise no independent judiciary, then you cannot argue that there is a separation of powers.

I agree that there is no separation of powers, and would never claim such. I would deny that there is any such fundamental requirement for a government. I'm not even sure why such a thing need be desirable. What do you base this claim on?

Checks are provided by: 3 councillors, so one can be somewhat quashed if need be (though the law has no such mechanism); limited power: drojf has 3 councillors and 2 police officers, none of whom can be expected to mindlessly obey orders or be easily intimidated, so a councillor can't run amuck very far; certain of the laws are protected from modification except by popular petition; and councillors can be instantly unseated by a sufficient popular vote.

On the other hand, if you go for the direct democracy of classical Athens, then the entire population would meet in the town square to discuss policy itself, and to vote for policy proposals directly.

The petitions mean that not only can citizens do this, but they don't actually have to devote themselves to wasting their time outdoors to do it. And petitions override council decisions.

One of my would-be trading characters tried to discover what the town's economy was like and what its needs were, but was told by a councillor that she didn't actually know. I'm not sure whether Drojf even has an economy, but if it does then the government would seem to have no knowledge of it.

Like kroner said, welcome to cantr . A functional economy just isn't necesary for survival in cantr, so I would say the majority of characters take no real interest in it. Businesses are just clans without morals for a reason - there really isn't a market for anything anywhere, as a rule. If you want to sell something to someone in someplace, it's almost certain they will only be able to pay with local resources, and most places, local resources are worthless garbage.

Essentially, in most of cantr no one transports things from point a to point b intending to trade them. There are a few characters that do this in a sane manner, and I think most of them belong to 2/3 players. That's just the world we've got.

[ephiroll]

The government in Karnon Forest is turning out interestingly. It basically does nothing except ensure that no other organization takes power. And by "nothing", I don't mean they do lots of pointless crap, I mean they really do nearly nothing and make no further claims.

Hey now, they don't do "nothing", every once in a while they have to break a sweat getting rid of someone who gets too big for their shoes.

[west]

*glares wildly in every direction*

You could be next!

[Nick]

A few of you mentioned that nowhere has an economy. Are we forgetting about Quillanoi? Local resources are worth money there... which makes the economy thrive. A big boost to the trade there is also how Brunoi likes to import hematite/iron to Quillanoi, sometimes even in excahnge for Quii.

If Brunoi adopted the Quii, it would greatly improve the region. I think that Quillanoi has made and enforced the concept of their currency quite well, but will only really take off once it is used in more than one place; so there are more than one set of local resources.

I think the best way to improve the economy would be to make farming harder to do. If farms had to be built and owned, people would have to buy food. They would have to work for their money. That, or just nationalize potatoes, and make it so you have to have a license to farm potatoes. That would improve the Quii, in a way.

[The Industriallist]

I've never herd a complementary thing about the Qui that made much sense. And this is no exception, as far as I can see.

Qui are backed in what? Potatoes and stone, at a fixed exchange rate? Neither is a resource worth transporting much, so the Qui functions more or less as an unbacked currency that you can buy more of at the central bank. But essentially, no one not from Quillanoi has any reason to want Qui, since they can only rarely redeem them, and they're only really useful in Quillanoi itself by psychotic fiat.

Currency doesn't inherently give you an economy, and particularly doesn't give you a good one. If you had a portable currency that was widely accepted, it would have a chance of doing some good. But I think that that would require a currency backed by some actual value.

But...maybe there is viable trade. What do the Brunoi merchants trade for?

[Nick]

Honestly, usually Quii. Brunoi helps the Quii out a lot. Quillanoi has a few services available in Quii, which makes the Quii something you want to attain. One can clothe himself with hemp, get a building, or obtain tools. Those are pretty much the only Quii oriented trades right now. My char intends to change that.

[The Industriallist]

TOOLS!?!?


That takes things to a very new level. I'd like to work out the conversion rates, and if I could see the accounting. Maybe I'm just evil, but that immediately launches into my mind a vast hemorage of wood, iron, and steel for stone and potatoes.

Time will tell. I guess.

[rklenseth]

I've never herd a complementary thing about the Qui that made much sense. And this is no exception, as far as I can see.

Qui are backed in what? Potatoes and stone, at a fixed exchange rate? Neither is a resource worth transporting much, so the Qui functions more or less as an unbacked currency that you can buy more of at the central bank. But essentially, no one not from Quillanoi has any reason to want Qui, since they can only rarely redeem them, and they're only really useful in Quillanoi itself by psychotic fiat.

Currency doesn't inherently give you an economy, and particularly doesn't give you a good one. If you had a portable currency that was widely accepted, it would have a chance of doing some good. But I think that that would require a currency backed by some actual value.

But...maybe there is viable trade. What do the Brunoi merchants trade for?

Currency doesn't have to be backed by resources. US currency is backed by debt rather than resources though it used to be backed by gold.

But what really gives currency a value is society's preceived worth of that currency. It doesn't need to be backed up by anything if society believes in its worth.

So if someone in Quillanoi believes that a Qui is worth 800 grams of potatoes then that is all that is needed.

As Nick said, the main problem is that people can farm their own potatoes or dig their own stone so why would you need to have Quii when you could trade directly with those resources and there was need to use Quii to buy things.

That is why Easle Quathak wanted to institute laws that would make it illegal to farm for potatoes or dig for stone without having a special permit as well as make it illegal to trade in raw resources. It was also why in Quillanoi that most if not all of the major business owners agreed to accept only Quii as payment as well as pay employees in Quii only. In a trade agreement, the leaders of Brunoi accepted the value of Quii and began trading in it. Siom at one point was very interested but I'm not sure of their status today but from having three current characters in the Siom territories I'm guessing it didn't happen.

The only barrier to having the Quii accepted is making society accept its value. In America, a Euro is worthless. You can't go to a store and use it to pay for anything. But the Euro is backed as well as accepted in most of Europe but the thing is that Americans and American businesses don't accept the value of the Euro which is Europe is worth more than the American dollar.

[The Industriallist]

US currency was backed untill too many people were too deeply into it to discard it just because it has no backing. And it is backed to a degree by the Federal Reserve's anti-inflationary measures.
It's true that unbacked currency can work. But unbacked currency gets value from the existance of people willing to sell you things for it. I haven't yet met anyone selling anything worth having for quii, though apparently they do exist.

I still see the Quii as a shared delusion of the ruling classes. That's particularly clear if you look at what you're aying has been done and considered: artificially propping up the currency by protecting its backing resources and by refusing better offers made in other forms of exchange. And I strongly believe that without such measures a few people willing to work at it can tear the system down through its own workings.

I had more, but I think it's getting too late for me to think clearly, so I thought it bettor to remove it.

[Nick]

Easle Quathak wanted to institute laws that would make it illegal to farm for potatoes or dig for stone without having a special permit as well as make it illegal to trade in raw resources. It was also why in Quillanoi that most if not all of the major business owners agreed to accept only Quii as payment as well as pay employees in Quii only.

Workers being paid in Quii is the only policy of those that is actually in the law books as of yet.... although I believe that the Quii-only trades may be introduced. The wage law stimulates the currency as well.... business owners need Quii, so they sell their products for Quii as well. Hopefully soon Quii will be required for trading.

[Pulpcatcher]

An economy? Look at Sjoftich Hills South. It has a minimum wage of 40g of iron per year for all state employees. It's proving very popular. The government's a little under-developed as yet though.

[The Industriallist]

In their location that isn't so impressive, but it is pretty good. What it isn't is an indicator of any kind of active trade going on.

So it may be a good economy in a sense, but it's organization economics instead of society economics. Companies, Clans, and some governments do produce things pretty well, but it's all centeral control and peon labor. Moderately well paid peons in this case, though.