Strictly Medieval vs. Advancing Technologies

[Anthony Roberts]

A:

You are correct that new things branch off of existing things. This is due to limitations that Resources Department has. When we make a new resource, it needs to be something made off of a current resource. If we want a completly NEW resource (Like, Lead, for example) - It would only be added to NEW islands, by the New Lands Department. Aparently, Jos doesn't want to add new resources to already developed/developing lands, as it unbalances it that way (Or something like that.

...

B: Yes, it would be impossible, as to why I agreed with descriptions. You rebuttel to me agreeing? Lol

C: What does your point have to do with forum RPs? ... I don't think I get what you're rebuttling, but I understand what you're saying.

D: This is why the better things aren't added yet. There aren't telegraphs because it's not possible yet. We can only work with what we have, until more is added, which will take time.

E: (You labelled D twice...?) ENSLAVE!

F: Wing Commander sucked.

G: I was making an example. You'd probably be dead in real life by the time a cell phone were implemented - Sure, there might be telegraphs and stationary phones, but that's not for awhile. As for the shut up comment, I didn't say that at all. At least, I don't remember saying it. And if I did, I wouldn't have said it 'in so many words'. If I'd say "shut up", it would be to you - Kidding

H: Cantr won't be at current technology for awhile, until programming limits such a feat. And even then, it would soon after probably advance past that. But that won't be around for YEARS to come, I'm sure. I doubt we'd get past modern day technology, without adding so much more to already existing technology trees. And what do you have against Propane? /I/ don't see a problem with it. Propane came before most machines in the game, considdering a lot of them run off of Propane, Gasoline, or mechanical crank.

[The Industriallist]

A: My point, which you are persistently missing, is that a tech tree can build up instead of sideways without new inputs. But the only thing more advanced than steel is aluminum, which is only usable for making vehicles, and instead of expanding at the peak of the technology, you are adding on to the lower levels.

B: you made a big point (half your post) about the RP, which is inapplicable to the game as it stands. Then you didn't seem to reallize I was discrediting the huge paragraph... maybe I'm wrong about that.

C: You clearly stated in your prior bost that staying medieval would make cantr an advanced RP forum (which it kind of is). I assume that that is meant to imply that 'advancing technology' will make it something else. This is what I was rebutting.

D/F: Point was that thare are things your RD powers allow you to create that are horribly unbalanced and inaccurate in the current cantr world. Not telegraphs, which are simply beyond your feeble abilities.

G: Firstly, don't even joke about that. Please. Bad, bad example.
I certainly saw describing requests for new features instead of new tools as 'sulk(ing) in a corner saying "I want this, I need that" when you could enjoy what you have. ' as a 'Shut up and step aside'. Is there another meaning you can give it?

H: It isn't the level of technology that matters. It's how it fits into the game.

No machine in cantr runs on fuel, except ovens, furnaces, and the like. Everything, including cars, is either hand-operated or has some sort of unexplained inner power source that only operates when supervised...
You can't say "cars run on gasoline" when cars quite visibly run without any gasoline in sight, or indeed in the world at all. And besides that, cars have long been noted as not being representative of the actual cantr tech level (haven't they?)

From my five seconds research, I found that Propane is the liquifiable fraction of natural gas. Of course, it only liquifies at low temperatures or high pressures. So at once, you have: defined the mistifying 'gas' to be natural gas, which is completely impossible to transport without airtight vessels. You have also allowed people to carry, in their bare hands, liquid that vaporizes well bolow human body temperature. And, if my information about the 'gas refiner' is correct, you have created a coal-fueled refrigerator for separating propane from gas.
I'll drop my RL arguments if you will

[Pirog]

You're right, there's anything and everything to be added to Cantr if it were to stay Medieval. However, then it would just be an advanced forum role playing game. You know, those message boards that people role play constantly... Cantr would just be a more self-sufficient and complex form of it. I enjoy Cantr because it is -different-. I love the fact that there's a large degree of DIFFERENCE in what you can do in the game.

I don't think it would. I think the game I describes would open up for more different playing than having Cantr as it is now, but with hi-tech stuff added to it...
And I think Cantr is good enough to not having to worry about losing players to other medieval games.

Now you're getting ahead of yourself. Cantr doesn't have these things, because they take time to implement by the understaffed Programming Department. -IF- these were in the game, then yes, Cantr would be a very rich gaming world to play with. However, the Cantr we currently have is the one being worked on. A tool based off of a tool to gather resources quicker or something is as complex as you're going to get at the moment, and we're going to be stuck with it for awhile. Better to make the most of it, then to sulk in a corner saying "I want this, I need that" when you could enjoy what you have.

But this is my whole point.
Since changes like this needs a lot of time and you are understaffed you won't be able to make everything you like. And therefore I keep saying that I want Cantr to remain a medieval game, because I would rather see structural improvements like the things I mentioned in my last post than new flashy items to construct...because those flashy things takes a lot of time away from the other improvements.
So I think you doesn't really see my point...I'm not sulking in the corner, I'm just trying to point out that having an improved structure AND a progressing timeline is a much to big vision to have at present.

This is a problem? I don't see how. It already happens today in Cantr. The stronger people take over the weaker ones.

Well, it is a problem if you maintain an idea of having primitive societies living alongside more modern ones. Because when the tech improvement has gone far enough to make travel all over Cantr a quick job the primitive societies will disappear...and then you have replaced a medieval Cantr with a Cantr that is purelt modern. And I don't think there are as many interested in playing modern games as it is who are fascinated with medieval games.

Cantr is a SOCIETY SIMULATOR. Not a war game, not a medieval RPG, nor a sci-fi adventure game. Cantr is a Society Simulator. How better to simulate society, then to have it advance? If we were still in the Medieval ages, how far would -we- have advanced, as a society?

If the structural improvements I mentioned earlier are implemented I think the society simulation part of Cantr would grow a lot more than if airplanes and telephones are added to the current one.
Those structural things are needed to make it more complex to run a stable society. You need a government to organize how and when you shall plant the crops, how much resources should be spent on funding the town guard, children will make heritance, education etc. possible, as well as laying ground for monarchies and aristocracy etc.

An important aspect of a society simulator is that it is realistic...otherwise is simulates something that doesn't reflect anything.
A progressing society simulator would be great...but then it would have to progress in a way that reflects how a society evolved, and that isn't the case right now.

As I mentioned earlier I wouldn't mind at all if the techs evolved, but it should be made much slower than it does now and with more realistic motivations.

In Cantr, if vehicles were removed (The high-tech automobiles, anyway) - You'd be forced to walk, use a wagon, and a slow longboat to cross the ocean. You'd only be able to dream of some things, but with better technologies, you can make those things happen.

Then again, there was a time when it was a big project just to travel to the neighbouring town. And if you want to speed things up to higher the gaming experience you could just make walking, longboats and other primitive vehicles a bit faster.
Instead of cars I would like to see horse drawn wagons etc.

You'd rather keep Cantr stuck in the bronze age, then let it grow and advance to enhance the game? Oh sure, -currently- it's not much "enhancing" because of current game mechanics. But what if there were programmed things. Don't you think having a Cell Phone would be useful? Call your friend locations away wondering how his trek is? Or, do you still want to hire a messenger to run down the road as quick as he can to send a message, then wait for him to come back?

Yes, I would rather have Cantr remain in the bronze age than that...and I hate the idea of cell phones etc. I hate it to a degree that I will probably stop playing Cantr when the game has "evolved" that far...and that is sad, since this is my favourite game.

I wouldn't mind cell phones and other modern things in a game that is structurally made for a modern game...but I don't think Cantr has come that far yet...it's actually very long away from it.
But even if it was I would still want the medieval game...

[Anthony Roberts]

Ahh... Yeah?! Well...

[Insert my rebuttel here]

My fingers hurt from gardening. I fold. You all win.

Plus, no one is on MY side. I hate being the odd one out. Bloody DeVono Black Hat! Damn DeVono to hell, I say!

Yes, I make no sense.

[Pirog]

I didn't discuss to win points...I just wanted to make my point clear.
I think a lot of people will leave Cantr if it evolves in the way I have warned about...but then again I may of course be totally wrong.

[kroner]

The possibilities within the medeval setting are vast. The tech tree could be hugely expanded with in that sort of setting. Adding modern technology seems to me a bit pointless.

Most importantly, there is no true technilogical progress in cantr right now. People don't come up with new ideas, they know most of what is possible for them to create already. It's only the tools and resources available to them that limits them. Building tools and machines you didn't have before, but knew about, is not the same as inovation. Because this is the only limitation, and because tools and machines require no maintance, the tech tree in cantr is extremely flawed. You don't need complex infrastructure and trade to build up to the top. All you need is time. This is what makes cantr boring, not a lack of chronological diversity. This is also why I'm always advocating item deterioration. Without true inovation and technilogical progression available, I feel that item deterioration is the best we can do to put cantr more on the right track.

Having the Programming Department add new technology as people reach it, is not an adequate substitute for real tech progress.

[NetherSpawn]

A basic problem in technology advancement is that there are a very few FINAL PRODUCTS in Cantr. I refer only to items with a function, in which category clothing does not fall.

Weapons
Protection
Buildings, Locks
Vehicles
Food
Healing Food

Everything is is simply a means, possibly a method to accelerate the process. You already said that weapons and protection aren't going to advance, except maybe having existing things, like sabres, take extra tools.
Vehicles have very little room for advancement. There are already vehicles so big that I don't think anyone has them yet.
Buildings don't advance. I think all buildings are equal. Ditto for locks.
Food and Healing Food already have a large enough tree that very few people climb it. To my knowledge, climbing it's not very rewarding anyway.

There's very little less to advance, unless you simply want to decrease the amount of time things take if you have a bunch of machines or tools.

[Anthony Roberts]

Pirog, I'm surprised! I thought by now you'd realise that I use the term "You win." or "I win!" as a joking manner. I don't really mean "YOU WIN", but I mean it as a finishing gesture. I'm the same, I'm not doing this for points either - none of us are, I bet. It's just so others can see your point, and be possibly persuaded to accept it as the "right" (I use that term loosly) way to look at it.

Kroner, what if it were Programmed accurately for actual tech advances, instead of the 'advances' type system we have now? Would that be better? I'd fight for it, for damn sure. I remember Sho commented long ago on a "Blue Print" system. I didn't like it, personally, however I'm sure there are ways it could be done to make actual advancements.

As for inovation, I'm actually SCHEMING in the background with a way to do this with our current system (So that it doesn't need to be programmed, and can be added faster! ) - Like, for example, a way to enhance a machine to do better work with a better tip to its drill or something? Or, make your cars or boats go faster when an enhanced engine or more masts? Currently, everything is an "invention". There's really nothing made that IMPROVES upon something (Except perhaps Coal to Charcoal, or similiar) - But inovations might crop up sooner or later. Depending on how good the planning goes, if GAC accepts it, and if the players want it, then it could be added.

[Ouch, geez. My fingers still hurt from gardening...]

Erm. NetherSpawn, you're INCORRECT!

I did state that weapons and shields would stay in the Medieval Setting. However, there's always the possibility that new weapons are added, but to accomadate this, the current weapons would have their attacks lowered. But this won't happen for a long time, if ever, but I can't offically say that.

Also, there may be ways to have better locks and such. A better lock requires more time to break it with 'said' tool, or may require a superiour tool.

As for food and healing food, yes, those can remain untouched. There's already a huge base to it, and it's perfect the way it is. Go eat some Pizza

[Appleide]

I have always wanted to role play scientists , and I thought it would be possible in cantr, but no.

Anyways, I 've got an idea, anyone could make a new innovation, and have the tools of resources department (what are they again?) but need certain machines, and are more limited and random.

For example, I am a cantr char, I use a machine to innovate. I go on the machine and select the tab, vehicle. then I select the speed I want it to travel, but the resources are determined by the machine, and if I want it to be too fast, it would fail. I have to keep adding materials to it every year, else it would fail as well... After 5 or 10 years, a prototype is made. there, innovation. but it might not work.

[NetherSpawn]

There's room in Cantr for a scientist. A person who makes machines to find out their effects and efficiencies is one. The Cantr world isn't documented. A scientist would try to make a complete list of all possible projects and their various properties.

I like Medieval weapons, although I have no problem with going to Flintlock weapons or something of the sort.
So weapon advancements are intended to keep people from needing self defence? Currently you can't kill the people in a town who have no healing food or shields in two days, and in two days you're likely to be jailed or battered nastily by the few people who actually have equpment. I agree that "insta-kill" weapons are a problem, but if you don't sign on at least once every two days, get your characters healing food or basic defences, or stay somewhere where other people can take care of you, you can hardly expect your characters to stay alive. People need to use at least one defensive method to survive. As long as there's only one person attacking, currently you can keep yourself safe. I like messing with current weapons, although you also have to do the same for current shields. But lowering weapon damage in general and then making a weapon that is as good a sabre WAS doesn't make a lot of sense and causes RP trouble, like the switch from bone swords to bone fur scrapers.

If you do make new weapons, make them take a lot of different resources. Every useful weapon currently takes only the 3 core reasources (wood, iron, steel). Currently composite weapons are all bad.

Finally, about innovations, items are frequently "invented" because no one knew they existed before. My character in the Spanish section "invented" bone shields after they were added.

[Pirog]

Instead of altering the amount of damage weapons make the whole battle system should be re-designed.

A shot from a modern rifle doesn't cause more damage than a cut from a sabre...they are just used very differently.

[Anthony Roberts]

Yes, Pirog, I completly agree. My statement would be applied to the current system. But I do say that there should be different forms of defences, based on different forms of weaponry. An example, Puncture and Slash type weapons. Spear vs Sword. A wooden shield would be good against Puncture, however, poor against Slash. However, an Iron Shield would be good against both, but not "the best" at both. Such a system would be great to have and would allow more diverse weaponry. No longer would a "Sabre" be the best weapon, there would be multiple best weapons, based on user preference and what the person has as protection.

[The Industriallist]

@Netherspawn:
I tried to find out whether that 'scientist' role is actually a niche provided by the rules or not, but the final decision was that there weren't actually any rules about what machine uses your character can know. Which means that each machine only actually has to be built once for the entire world to learn it's workings.

[nitefyre]

@Netherspawn:
I tried to find out whether that 'scientist' role is actually a niche provided by the rules or not, but the final decision was that there weren't actually any rules about what machine uses your character can know. Which means that each machine only actually has to be built once for the entire world to learn it's workings.

No.

I have a scientist character, who's interested in learning about ALL sorts of stuff. He has an encyclopedia and studies, maps, all in his name. He has listed from his learnings, the actual quantities and resources needed to make, with what machine, and to make what. He's only got a few machines done so far. But there's definetly many a position in cantr, from doctor to taxi driver, from editor to farmer. A lot of things are possible. Be imaginative. Af

[The Industriallist]

Perhaps I should have said, it has been ruled to be a matter of roleplaying. See Missy's post in the final page of "Clarification of IC/OOC Machine Knowledge". Means to me that if you think your character could figure it out (and you know the right answer) they can figure it out. I don't like it at all, which is what that whole topic was about, but that is what was handed down.