Clarification of IC/OOC Machine Knowledge

[Pirog]

1959 Apache>

Well, I don't think that's true. Sure, alchemists and those kinds of scientists can laborate at random...that is part of their job. But an inventor building machines doesn't just put things together at random without a plan.

If you want a game where people should learn by trial and error it would be better to have a skill process in construting things, making it hard to build machines that work for new and inexperienced characters...but this guessing game that's going on can never be realistic.

[Revanael]

If I go and make something, I'll know what I'm intending to make before I start. I might not know whether it'll work as I intend it to, but I will know what it was intended for.

Any research, invention, or similar is done with an aim in mind.

[Jur Schagen]

As it is, the CR breaches come "naturally". Even if your char hasn't seen a single gram of rice in his life, he knows full well how much you eat daily and is unlikely to be cheated by a rogue trader telling him he'll only need 40g daily. Same for machines: if you're going to set up a tailor shop, an experienced * player* (as opposed to character) simply knows what machines he needs to process the raw resources. It is almost impossible to roleplay "not knowing" it and building say a table because the char imagines it might be usefull for the final sowing of the cloathes - the player knows he doesn't need it and doesn't even dream about building a table.

This is a learning curve of the player, not of the character. As it is, this process is hampering new players. Experienced players know the production processes (or most of them), and will simply not even consider stepping outside them. Newbie players, on the other hand, don't know this and get "shot down" for it (finally getting all these resources together, starting a pickaxe and adding the precious resources, only to find out there's no anvil at the location and everything is waisted. Building a car and not realizing the materials listed don't include the engine. The list goes on forever). This may well be a reason for quitting the "stupid game" early out of frustration.

I would be all for assuming all this is knowledge acquired at under-20, and simply publishing all production processes on a public OOC help file for all players to refer to.

If this is considered too much, we might include a "scrolls" system. These would be a mixture of a note and a tool, and represent science. Projects would require an appropriate "scroll" for a certain item to be produced; for instance building a house would require the "masonry" scroll. The scrolls do not have a weight like notes, and can be copied and given away or put on the ground (representing sharing of knowledge). Initial development of the scroll would be much like producing an item: spend a few days on a project to "create" the scroll. This represents studying the science. Resources wouldn't be needed, but some of the more advanced scrolls would need simpler scrolls to be developed ("smelting steel" might require "smelting iron", for instance). When working on a project you do not have the scroll for would result in an error just like the current "not the right tools" message.
A system like this would allow the full production tree to be published, yet chars would not be allowed to bear the fruit of the OOC knowledge... what do you guys think?

Jur.

[SekoETC]

The idea about scrolls sounds good but what about illiterate characters? In real world they learn things when people tell them orally...

[Pirog]

SekoETC>

Yes, and that applies to everyone else too.
It's because you talk so little in Cantr in comparison to real life that the idea of people learning in game becomes impossible.

[The Industriallist]

Jur Schagen>

Thank you! Exactly what I intended to be saying!

Except that, beeing naturally more repressive and such, I would prefer to simply declare those official CR breaches and supress them as such.

And I don't really like the scroll idea, but if it is done I don't think it would require any coding at all. Use the 'key' copying, make the weight 0... of course, I'm making a lot of assumptions in this...

[Agar]

Here's something I keep hearing over and over in this thread: Invention

Is Cantr an invention game or a society sim?

Let's say your character isn't interested in invention, Let's make him a simple farmer. Well, hell, really simple farming is grabbing the stuff with your bare hands and tossing it in a pile, but that's not very productive. So there's asparagus there, but only an asparagus harvest knife will help this farmer out, nothing else, and this poor farmer has no idea how to make the steel he needs or where to get the material, and frankly doesn't feel like suddenly becoming a wandering trader just to make a strange knife, when he can make a bone one and get a little more work done without the fuss.

But that doesn't work in Cantr. Only the asparagus harvest knife works.

Neccessity is the mother of invention, but you can't improvise. Sure these tool promote trade, but how many trading posts are vacant because all the traders have wandered off? Why aren't there itenerant trading posts where people have large stockpiles of the resources at hand to trade for outside goods? Because to get the goods at hand more efficently, they have to send people off to get other resources and the shop fails.

Why not have a "MacGuyer option" to more projects, like the tomatoes have, where you can get slightly more gains by useing what's at hand?

[XBL]

//Jur Schagen

I disagree because I think nothing should be learned 'instantly' (by picking up a scroll or something). In my opinion you must read the info about a project in a note (someone wrote down his knowledge). Or, someone tells you in-game.

Other then that, I agree on that you learned 'something' in your first 20 years.

If you really want to use something like these scrolls, I would say: only show projects on the player page which the player can actually make. I mean, someone can work towards a crossbow. He can check what he needs and works back until he knows the first project to start (getting iron somehow, I guess (I'm not a weaponman ). Now, if you don't have any tools, you can only make things you make with your hands. Like a hammer.

This wont make new players frustaded and quit early ("stupid game" ).

I hope you ppl get my point...

Jochem

[kroner]

Somewhere in suggestions Sho introduced an idea for plans which are essentially the same as the scrolls. It was a good discussion, but I can't find it...

[wietse]

I just want to say that i totally agree with Jur Schagen that player knowledge and character knowlegde should be seperated.

As the game is now. The only experience gained is by a player and not by characters. I personaly use all my knowledge as a player for the benefit of all characters. I think its nearly impossible to not do this at least a bit for every player, as every new character would have to ask all other characters about everthing or build lots of things at random.
Also i dont think this shared knowledge gets in the way of the general idea/rule of the game as my characters do not work together and have seperate goals. Also to the building of things takes much time which i personally dont want to waste building useless tools or vehicels. If this is illegal well somebody tell me....

I think the way how the game works now contradicts the capital rule and practily all players are forced to violate the capital rule...

Because of this player knowledge is so important (only way to learn is by playing) experienced players have an advantage over starting players, although it is not that big as it takes so much time to build things. Although i must admit the discovery of how things works is part of the fun of playing cantr I think the game is better of by separating character and player knowledge. Whether by something called scrolls or something else. I am very much for a complete desription of tools, uses and resources and a proper players manual in the game.

By using scrolls or something similar i thing also coopariton and knowledge sharing becomes much more important as the only way to learn things quickly is from other characters. I think this (cooparation/interaction between players) is what cantr should mainly be about (aside from collecting and building). A character based knowledge system can promote player interaction and society building.

[The Industriallist]

I think they should be separated by the CR, not a new game-mechanic. No one is ever "forced to" break the CR, but if the CR isn't stated as applying to this subject, the question of whether it is illegal or not becomes a stumbling block. Do you disadvantage yourself by taking the strictest interpretation, possibly irretating other players in the process, or do you 'not really break the rules' and exploit your months of prior player experience?

[The Industriallist]

I may have been unclear, but besides the interesting discussion I really wanted an official ruling here. To my (probably deluded) mind this is as critical as the baby issue or the dog-riding gnome mage issue was.

As it is, there is a gaping hole in the CR. Please, patch it somehow!

[Missy]

*Aims her slingshot at industrialist.* You've just gotta be difficult don't you? lol I have to read the topic and will encourage others in the PD to so as well and see if we can't help clarify.

{Edit} Please note it may take a while.

[nitefyre]

Industrialist, you ask us all and then don't take our understanding?

*ERRRRRRRRRGHHHHHH avoid's Gwar's smash mentality*

Anyways, just email the players@cantr.net so we don't have to hear your disappointment in what we spend the time to share our views about. Or just pm them.

I'm frankly quite hurt that you don't like our ideas.

[The Industriallist]

Actually, I really don't like your ideas. Not that I said so previously, or that it matters, but I think scrolls, blueprints, etc. would not be a good thing to add to cantr.

Besides, the question was never: what would you add to cantr to resolve the non-issue of inventing machines?..It was: Do/should charactes know the functions of machines that they have never seen?

Do you really not like my topic?