Why Cantr is broken as a society simulator

[Cogliostro]

Yes, I know in my own case, if it wasn't for one of those Blackrock dramas when I first started (my character got caught up in an anti-blackrock crusade), I wouldn't have lasted beyond a 10 day old newspawn. But once you see the potential, even if it's very remote, very nerfed like it is now, that makes you stay and pay attention more to the unique game.

Haggismcbean, you said "rivalries", and that's an interesting angle - but do you realize that without an effective system of violence, this is basically impossible, since if you smelt iron in your town and I smelt it in mine, but we have no meaningful way to go head to head in battle, we will never even know whose pile is bigger?

[haggismcbean]

It'd be less about who makes the most iron, and more about who makes the most weapons and gives them to the most bloodthirsty newspawns. More locations = more newspawns, encouraging empires. Also we wouldn't want to waste resource slots on food harvesting when we could turn that farm into a hematite mine, so our food would have to offshored, encouraging empires or trading or both.

Remember I did suggest that iron rot and tool rot would be greatly increased to address huge stockpiles; ideally there would actually be a purpose in gathering more resources as the tool rot and limited gathering slots could be calculated to leave smallish yields on iron making even in big towns.

If the balance was addressed well it still hopefully wouldn't turn into a hack'n'slash.

[Cogliostro]

ToadyOne, the game design genius behind "Dwarf Fortress" has an interesting method of working that I picked up from him. He writes insane scenarios or stories about what he would like to see happening in the game to a player, essentially "what would be really fun if that could happen".

And then implements features to enable those exact things, trying to be as general as possible, but without making the actual code complicated. So the exciting events that can happen to players get more and more various, while complexity is kept down!

Maybe we should brainstorm in the same way, and who knows, an inspired Polish coder on the Cantr team might just cut through the red tape and implement some things we come up with.

"What would you like to experience happening in Cantr to your newspawn?"

A fundamentally different way of thinking compared to our usual "what's realistic and what isn't?" approach.

[Henkie]

I must say I am quite struck by the thought you put into this.. It is easy to read and I must say, rather mesmerizing.

Suggested solutions:
- Remove the 'repair object' ability, but objects rot much faster than raws
- Max population size of a town (NOT STATIC - GROWS SLOWLY WITH TIME SO TRADERS CAN STILL VISIT, BUT RESOURCE GATHERING PARTIES HAVE DIFFICULTY DOING SO)
- Less distance between towns
- Less dilution of player base
- Hide option of player whisper (so more people can be in the same town without it getting incredibly annoying
- Towns with ability to create iron etc much more close (to each other) and common but
- Iron rot much higher
- People can form parties to travel in, if they are too large to enter a town they can 'force' (or even 'buy(?)') their way in (?)

The suggestions however I see almost all of them as not good.
Basically causing things to rot fast will greatly disadvantage the smaller towns and specially the ones depleted of iron-making-resources, which you seem so eager to protect (merely one of the many points I could make against the suggestions, but those have all been said before, so lets not waste such time).

From what I read, your main priority is to stimulate trade, deter resource-hoarding, and stimulate competitive manners in our little computer-world.

Two of three could be solved by reducing travel time, i.e. (my suggestion) making ALL travel speeds twice as high.
Then the resource-hoarding.. I don't think this is something to meddle with. It is a part of the game to get resources, and resources have a common worth, bond to the gathering-time of it. What might be helpful to reduce the hoarding&piling is ofcourse deterring people to do so in some way... The problem is, off the top of my head I can't think of a sure-fire way to do this without damaging other aspects which I see not ready to be sacrificed.


EDIT:
Coglio, I can't figure out where the jab at the forum posters came from. Are you trying to get people worked up over you? Do you wish to be in the center of their attention no matter what? Did you feel like they were insufficient in their comments? Do you think they are not worthy of posting their thoughts (which is the main point and specifically what the author asked for and even thanked them for)?
The jab was unnecessary and unfriendly. You should apologize, sincerely, that was the comment of an ass.

[RedQueen.exe]

I'm just not sure how limiting resource slots would cause people to start importing food. From what I've seen of cantrian behavior, they'd just sacrifice other production in order to keep food gathering running.

I'm in huge support of making the world smaller / increasing travel speeds though, but unfortunately, we probably need a reduction in the number of towns as well. =\ So many newspawns want to start their own town, when obviously, not everybody can. This results in a lot of people trying, since there are so many abandoned towns to be tempted by, only to give up and suicide out of boredom before long.

[haggismcbean]

I'm just not sure how limiting resource slots would cause people to start importing food. From what I've seen of cantrian behavior, they'd just sacrifice other production in order to keep food gathering running.

I'm in huge support of making the world smaller / increasing travel speeds though, but unfortunately, we probably need a reduction in the number of towns as well. =\ So many newspawns want to start their own town, when obviously, not everybody can. This results in a lot of people trying, since there are so many abandoned towns to be tempted by, only to give up and suicide out of boredom before long.

People would start importing food if they had no other option. For example if the town had an active population of 12, but only 2 people could farm at a time and that could only feed 8 people per day due to limited resource slots and low yields. This would lead to food prices higher than their labour costs because of scarcity, which is what we see in the real world. (edit: And resource trading would be forced if the whole island had similar pressures on population, with some towns being able to make massive food surpluses but having no other resources of vaue)

You make a good point in the second paragraph; although I believe the world can be as big as it is, but being able to survive on your own anywhere should only be possible for very rich men and women.

[haggismcbean]

Basically causing things to rot fast will greatly disadvantage the smaller towns and specially the ones depleted of iron-making-resources, which you seem so eager to protect (merely one of the many points I could make against the suggestions, but those have all been said before, so lets not waste such time).

Thank you for your post. You make some good points about the iron rot. Perhaps just decreasing the yield somewhat could help? The problem at the moment is that people can make enough iron for a lifetime in a few years of hard graft, in relatively small or even isolated workgroups. I'm not sure I have a solution for that ready, but it strikes me as unrealistic and certainly does not stimulate trade or RP. It's not that I want the 60 year old characters out there to still constantly be striving for wealth, more that younger characters need to have a use to increase RP amongst the generation gap. Maybe a solution could be that you aren't able to farm if you're over 30 years of age (?!)

It is a part of the game to get resources, and resources have a common worth, bond to the gathering-time of it.

In my opinion the resources should not have a common price that depends only on how long they take to gather. There should be a clear mark up for all gatherers of most resources based on scarcity and demand, like in the real world.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the dynamic town sizes and resource gathering slots. The actual implementation would be troublesome, but I can't see any downsides other than this. If a raiding party or army wants to enter the town they can try to force their way in by killing people maybe? Or we could have some vehicles that are very slow but act as a battering ram, increasing the size of the town for our invaders?

Doubling the speed of travel would help to some extent but I would like to go even further. I suggest if you make it take no more than a day to get from one location to another on foot, and keep or even slightly increase that travel time for vehicles, there's still enormous value in owning most vehicles as they're essentially mobile homes. Some bikes could allow faster than walking speeds but reduced capacity as we have at the moment.

[haggismcbean]

ToadyOne, the game design genius behind "Dwarf Fortress" has an interesting method of working that I picked up from him. He writes insane scenarios or stories about what he would like to see happening in the game to a player, essentially "what would be really fun if that could happen".

This is of course much harder to do with no NPCs, but definitely in my opinion the right way to go about it.

[Doug R.]

This is probably the most important post made in the last twelve months. Thank you haggismcbean.

Suggested solutions:
- Remove the 'repair object' ability, ...s

Already being worked on behind the scenes.

- Max population size of a town (NOT STATIC - GROWS SLOWLY WITH TIME SO TRADERS CAN STILL VISIT, BUT RESOURCE GATHERING PARTIES HAVE DIFFICULTY DOING SO)

This was the goal of resource slots, but was nerfed when he players complained that they couldn't gather anymore (which was the point). In my opinion, resource slots should be lowered (and made adjustable, as you suggest).

- Less distance between towns

I agree. Everyone agrees. Let's just get this one done.

- Less dilution of player base

No way around this short of a game reset. We could make empty towns simply disappear and be replaced with lakes, but the outcry at the loss of history would be deafening.

- Hide option of player whisper (so more people can be in the same town without it getting incredibly annoying

Jos's intention was that society would exist indoors. However, the game's design and the player's need to socialize forced everyone outside. Now it's the opposite - no one likes being indoors, because indoors means isolation. We need to embrace that Cantr is a social game and create mechanisms that allow people to head back indoors yet still remain social. I argue that we don't need to enable MORE people to be outdoors, we need to make it not a social handicap to be indoors.

- Towns with ability to create iron etc much more close (to each other) and common but

I agree, Noniwrok in it's heyday and Teregotha, two small islands with close towns and iron resources restricted to one town each are the most interesting places to live (for me). They see the most active politics and conflict. Large islands were a mistake, but short of eliminating them, I'm not sure what we can do. Adding existing resources at this stage is pretty much taboo. Perhaps more thought for geo-politics should have gone into resource placement on the larger islands.

- Iron rot much higher

Rot rates were lowered after player revolt.

- People can form parties to travel in, if they are too large to enter a town they can 'force' (or even 'buy(?)') their way in (?)

I think prohibiting the entering of towns is counter productive. If we lower travel times for Tom the Newspawn, the fix is broken again if he can't enter the town he's walking to. Either way, it's frustration. We should not be expecting new players to navigate their way around complicated mechanics.

[Cogliostro]

Henkie, a jab's only a jab if you felt it. If you felt it, then you deserve it! I'd want a jab if I deserved it. Aspiring to do unto others etc., I reap what I sow, witness the richly deserved "homegrown Galileo" burn I got from RedQueen today.

[Rumaan]

I haven't played Cantr for a while, but I don't think it has changed much since I last played. Here are some of my suggestions.

1. Health/strength/skill bonus with clothes and shelter. In my opinion, the fundamental reason for the lack of more war, industry and politics is because there is so little one has to do to survive in Cantr. Chars either die in small forest or mountain towns with no means of food or are freely given food in any decent sized town. Benefits with clothes and shelter will make chars aspire for something.

2. This is counter-intuitive. Short life spans - death due to natural causes. I suggest an average life span of around 20 Cantr years. Currently, chars do not die of natural causes (hunger not included). From my experience, one of the reasons why there is less war in Cantr is because most players hate losing their chars that they have played for so long. But knowing that their chars are going to die anyway by around age 40, they'll be more willing to engage in conflicts and more willing to experiment.

Shorter life spans will also help in players planning their chars' lives better. With shorter life spans, the bigger towns will see more power struggles, succession struggles etc. Also, because of the greater turnaround, new chars will have something to aspire to. Currently, in the larger towns the real power mostly remains with the oldest of players and the newer ones more or less accept the existing power structure.

3. Limit the supply rate of food. Animal population is already limited. I suggest plant population also to be limited. Currently, in a town of 30 people, all 30 can farm potatoes to get 800g potatoes a day. Limiting the supply rate of potatoes and other plants will force populations to be more evenly spread. This would also lead to greater inter-town trade and conflicts.

4. Increase the rate of rotting of all materials by a significant amount. Also, make food rot faster in plains.

5. Special storage facilities can be built that prolong shelf life of materials. These storages however require energy - burn oil or coal.

6. Always spawn the first 4-5 chars of a new player in larger and active towns. This is will greatly help in new players learning the game.

[Henkie]

People of Cantr forum, your attention spans are pitiable. How can you hope to conduct the symphonic theatre of 16 uniquely roleplayed characters if you're like that? If you want to listen to me, save yourself before it's too late! To have a go at this, sell your TV and smash the mobile phone. In short order your natural curiosity and attention span will be back, which may pay back big later, for example in academic excellence.

Coglio, I can't figure out where the jab at the forum posters came from. Are you trying to get people worked up over you? Do you wish to be in the center of their attention no matter what? Did you feel like they were insufficient in their comments? Do you think they are not worthy of posting their thoughts (which is the main point and specifically what the author asked for and even thanked them for)?
The jab was unnecessary and unfriendly. You should apologize, sincerely, that was the comment of an ass.

Henkie, a jab's only a jab if you felt it. If you felt it, then you deserve it! I'd want a jab if I deserved it. Aspiring to do unto others etc., I reap what I sow, witness the richly deserved "homegrown Galileo" burn I got from RedQueen today.

Don't deflect my question. Are you that insecure? What is your goal with that jab, because it IS a jab, whether people feel it as such or not is merely a reflection on how secure and self-observant they are.

[Cogliostro]

Henkie, you can grab a short interview in PM with me if you are that interested in my humble person. Go for it.

[Rumaan]

- Hide option of player whisper (so more people can be in the same town without it getting incredibly annoying

Jos's intention was that society would exist indoors. However, the game's design and the player's need to socialize forced everyone outside. Now it's the opposite - no one likes being indoors, because indoors means isolation. We need to embrace that Cantr is a social game and create mechanisms that allow people to head back indoors yet still remain social. I argue that we don't need to enable MORE people to be outdoors, we need to make it not a social handicap to be indoors.

I tend to support this. I think one to one communication should be the default. Shouting should require special instruments like a loudspeaker. I am sure eventually unauthorized shouting will be shunned, specially in larger towns. Moreover, one to one communication naturally adds greater intrigue.

If my suggestion of health/strength/skill bonuses with shelter is implemented, people will naturally spend more time indoors. Ideally, I would actually prefer health damage without shelter. But I expect a lot of players won't like that.

[masterekat]

Ideally, I would actually prefer health damage without shelter. But I expect a lot of players won't like that.

Simply make it to where animal packs can't be hunted down very much. It's rough to stay outside for more than a few hours at a time in certain places on Burgeo Island and I love it! It's such a challenge to get a simple vehicle built and I love the feeling of camaraderie my character has with the other two that she sometimes has to huddle inside a building with.