What is the game?

[Mykey]

I apologise, but, in my opinion, you are mistaken. I can defend the position.

[The Sociologist]

I agree with those who said that strategy and roleplay should be linked. Look, you can't roleplay an architect, estate agent or property mogul unless there is a demand for property. And there can't be a demand for property if every newspawn who comes along simply sets to work building a mud hut with his or her own name on it....even when there are more buildings in the town than there are people! That is ludicrous. There must be slot limitations and property limitations. Without scarcity there is no economy and without an economy you can't really roleplay anything in that line. I've already dealt with this in detail, but all I get for my pains are insults from Jur. Not sure that I want to bother any more, either with writing such essays or even with playing the game. I was only trying to help, you know.

Here:

Essay on Motivation

And I'm sorry, but item deterioration is essential for the game. All that needs to be looked at is the time factor, replacing it preferably with the addition of materials, or with the use of tool oils and the like. (See the above essay again). Please remember also that it isn't only repairs that are slowing down the game, but also the poor implementation of the skills system.

[Mykey]

In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. I can defend the position.

[Songthrush]

If you look at Cantr without rose-coloured glasses, you will plainly see that in our game scarcity does not lead to demand.

Gameplay reasons lead to demand. Scarcity is just a theoretical convenience used in the real world to signify almost the same thing - real world "gameplay". Almost but not quite. What you are calling for is to have less "haves" and more "have-nots" in Cantr, as if this by itself could set into motion the wheels of real estate trading. But when simplified like this, anyone can see that it will never work for Cantr. We already have this "scarcity" you crave in Cantr, consider smaller towns with only one or two buildings and many people. Only it doesn't do anything whatsoever to create a real estate market.

What could be introduced to make real estate agents and moguls possible? I will tell you: placeable deeds for buildings, which can be carried in character's inventories, and more building types, including vanity buildings. This will immediately create the category of characters you envisioned.

An artificial scarcity of buildings will only create more player annoyance.

[wichita]

I believe this is the first time I have completely agreed with a post from The Sociologist.

To paraphrase a brilliant idea from the IRC on this matter...

The Polish region isn't much older than item deterioration. It is quite clear to see that it completely stifled all war, construction, machine building, political intrigue, and the formation of any other societal structures. For the complete boredom and dwindling numbers of Polish players and locations, we humbly apologize for creating an impossibly boring game.

We also further crushed the hopes and dreams of any young Polish player by implementing the gatehring limits. This forced them to expand, and grow, searching for gatherable resources. Now they have to deal with all of that fancy shit like herbs and platinum that were previously thought to be undiscoverable. This was all a direct result of the gathering limits, and for this atrocity, we also humbly apologize.


I am going to be pushing that broadswords be made from potatoes, and that every newspawn recieves 400 grams of iron in his or her inventory so as not to inconvenience nor bore any new players away from our game. It is good to know that the seasoned veterans who have been playing this game for years have some fresh blood to fill us in on what strategy we would have more fun with....

[Zanthos]

How about potatoe cannons instead of potatoe broadswords?

And yes, repairs are beginning to make me remember why I quit the first time, well almost. there were no repairs back then, and if there were I probably would have quit for good.

Seriously though, what happened? As of a month ago, things just stopped going on! I am almost wishing for note thieves to break the tedium.

[wichita]

Seriously though, what happened? As of a month ago, things just stopped going on! I am almost wishing for note thieves to break the tedium.

For quite a few people the constant out of character nagging, plotting, and various other shinanigans have lead to disatisfaction with the game more than anything in game. There is also the typical factor of people moving to college and/or trying to claim what remaining shards of their dying summer break they have left.

[saztronic]

Sarcasm aside, wichita, you can't just write off all the dissatisfaction that gets expressed on the forums, this one included, as having nothing to do with game design. As you noted, the Polish region is thriving with item rot and what-all in place. But as you also noted, don't forget the relative youth of the Polish region. The newer you are to the game, the more interesting it is. It's only after you've been playing a while that ennui and frustration begin to set in.

And no, that's not an end-all be-all explanation for everything either. But I think it's just silly to chuck everything that's said in this thread because you happen to be Chair of the Resources Dept., the Polish region is doing well, and you get tired of the griping and bitching that characterizes some of these discussions. There's a middle ground in there somewhere. It's worth asking (and answering) why a vocal group doesn't like the way things work at the moment, even if another sizable group does like the way things work. It's also worth asking (and answering) whether there's an even larger, silent group that never expressess its dissatsifaction, but rather just... stops playing after a few days, or a few months. The Polish section is thriving. How many more English players are there today than there were when the Polish area was implemented? That would be an interesting question to get the answer to. I doubt the number is greatly increased. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually decreased, but I wouldn't really know.

We have to ask these questions. What else are we here for? And although some may ask them with bad attitudes, it doesn't change the fact that they're asking because they care about the game. They like it. Are these the people whose thoughts and sentiments you really want to dismiss?

[15454]

How many more English players are there today than there were when the Polish area was implemented? That would be an interesting question to get the answer to. I doubt the number is greatly increased. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually decreased, but I wouldn't really know.

What day was polish area implemented? Then I can tell you atleast 1 =P

[Solutions Maximus]

We do bicker too much...

Cantr's really not so bad.

[Pie]

You cannot stimulate need by creating a void.

If I were to make this new technolagy, lets say it fluffs your pillows for you(instantly i might add) would you buy it?

probably not, becaus you don't need your pillows flufed.

we don't need to create have-nots. We need to create problems for those without those haves.

You see, all that taking something away does is make it more valuable(with things that alredy have a demand) or it does nothing, becaus nobody has botherd to make these in the firstplace.

Such as with gold.

Gold is by far(Imo) the most unlooked at recours that has been discoverd. What use is it? none. It's just pretty. but it's so hard to get that it overbalances it's uses. You wanna know why iron is really so whidspread in it's demand? IT'S USEFULL, AND IT'S SO EASY TO GET AND IT DOES SOMTHING!!!!

to make more demand of somthing you have to make more postives to having that something.

[SuperSonicScientist]

we don't need to create have-nots. We need to create problems for those haves.

PURE GENIUS!


However as all the haves run the game it seems unlikely that they would spend time thinking up schemes to make life hard for them...

And if you think about it rot/decay meets that idea...

Back to the drawing board Pie!

[Jur Schagen]

but all I get for my pains are insults from Jur.

You might want to reread the thread you are referring to and try to imagine where those came from.

[wichita]

Honestly, when RD is in the process of discussing a new implementation, it is often mentioned when our own characters will be adversely affected by it. But we add it anyway when we feel it will honestly better the game.


The need for deterioration will not go away. It has a vital and important role in the game. The mechanics with which it is handled are simplistic and unrealistic. I doubt anyone will seriously refute that point.

I will just try to defend the reasoning behind it in a somewhat reasonable manner:


A stone hammer possese the exact same function as a steel hammer. Investing the steel in a hammer does not make you work faster. It does not weigh significantly less than that old stone thing. There is no strategic advantage to investing in a steel hammer.

Consider the deterioration system:
stone hammer = 192 days to crumble, 20 hours to repair
steel hammer = 334 days to crumble, 6 hours to repair

There is now significant motivation to invest in the steel tool. I think that should be abundantly clear. The production of a steel hammer is representative of the best way we have to simulate the transition from Stone Age to the Metal Age (iron and steel are essentially indistinguishable, there is nothing RD can do to fix that now, in my opinion).

How does this affect roleplay? You are not carrying a stone hammer anymore, you don't have to look like a caveman wearing nothing worth mentioning. You have more stuff. You can act more civilized. That is what good roleplayers do. They consider the environment and social status of their character, combine it with internal motivations devised by the player and then play the character according to those factors.

How does this affect gameplay? When you build a steel hammer you are one more step from being a caveman. You can spend less time repairing your hammer when you invest in an upgrade to the advanced tool, which is what you were trying to accomplish by with threads like this in the first place.


The way out of this is "problem" is in the game. Could it use some tweaking? Perhaps. Is it completely and inherently flawed? No. I don't think the flaw is inherent. Rates could be adjusted, and probably will soon. That takes people and time, though, two precious commodities that few people are willing to offer up when they can just pass the buck to somebody else.

And to the young players who seem to think that the stockpiling of tools argument was never a factor, I will relate the story of two sleepy old women in Hilloi. While my naked little newspawn was scraggling for potatoes, fending off horse and cow bites right and left, these two old women were standing in the town square sleeping. The newspawns were begging anybody wandering through for tools, shields, etc just trying to get a little edge in life and make their lives more comfortable. Occasionaly one of the old women would wake up, "Oh! You need a shield?", wander inside the house and return to unload several shields, weapons, etc. Everything we had been begging for for days and days and days. I am convinced that they had more resources and gear in that building than any single one of my characters have gathered or constructed in the past twenty years. They were bored. They had built all to be built and now were leaving the pensioner's existence, waiting for something interesting to happen.

[tiddy ogg]

I haven't been following this thread... it's the same old argument over and over. Wichi has got it spot on. It's only the mechanics of deterioration that are at fault. The char count seems pretty stable, but everyone is making more and more stuff. Some of my chars now are tryingg to persuade newspawns to finish off repair projects rather than making yet one more bone club, but it's an uphill task.