timber and wood

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webrv
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 pm

timber and wood

Postby webrv » Sun May 30, 2021 6:52 pm

The new wood strategy seems problematic.

example, building Sawing post require logs made with a lathe

But Lathe also require logs, bringing you back to square1.
webrv
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 pm

Re: timber and wood

Postby webrv » Sun May 30, 2021 10:22 pm

as reference of current wiki

Sawing post (converting timber into either wood or lumber. )
Manufacturing
Object type Machinery
Skill used Manufacturing Machines
Time 1.5 day(s)
Materials 2000 grams of stone
2000 grams of wood
Objects 4 medium logs

Lathe (Used for making the small, medium and large logs to build above Saw post)
Manufacturing
Object type Machinery
Skill used Manufacturing Machines
Time 1 day(s)
Objects 6 medium logs (also need logs..)
steel lathe blade
Tools hatchet

So requirement for logs:

Medium log
Manufacturing
Object type Semi-finished products
Skill used Carpenting
Time 0.5 day(s)
Materials 250 grams of timber
Machines lathe (Lathe need logs....)
Wasindear
Game Mechanics/Programming Dept. (Asp)
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:24 am

Re: timber and wood

Postby Wasindear » Sun May 30, 2021 11:03 pm

Medium logs do not need lathe, they can also be made using shaving horse. If only a lathe could make logs then the issue you describe would also mean that you couldn't build a lathe without a lathe.

The primitive sawing post doesn't require any logs.
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Rocket Frog
Game Mechanics Member
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: timber and wood

Postby Rocket Frog » Mon May 31, 2021 12:20 am

No, webrv is right.

There's some kind of steel gate there, as for making a shaving horse you need 6 small logs and a hatchet. Then for making those 6 small logs you need a peavey and a drawknife.

Literally that asks you to have steel before moving from Tier 1 to Tier 2, and it's way easier to skip that and move to Tier 3 instead, what wasn't the idea at all; it was meant to be simpler.

Now there's a point on the whole project where we discussed about the simplification of logs and their production, but we didn't detail it enough. So taking that as a base we kept working on this. That was a mistake.

This will gonna be fixed soon.
Wasindear
Game Mechanics/Programming Dept. (Asp)
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Re: timber and wood

Postby Wasindear » Mon May 31, 2021 12:28 am

Well, they are right there is a problem, but the problem is not that logs cannot be made without a lathe :P
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Rocket Frog
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Re: timber and wood

Postby Rocket Frog » Mon May 31, 2021 12:56 am

The logs requirement has been changed to just timber for now. If the simplification of logs production happens, we might change or might not change it back.
The whole idea was to remove the steel gate that kept logs locked, but it didn't happen, so the people could produce them with less requirements and even in the most rustic situations.

Sorry for the inconveniences.
webrv
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 pm

Re: timber and wood

Postby webrv » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:38 am

medium log

PROCEED
Days needed: 1
steel peavey
steel drawknife
250 grams of timber
shaving horse

medium log

PROCEED
Days needed: 0.5
250 grams of timber
lathe with a steel blade

small log

PROCEED
Days needed: 2
steel peavey
steel drawknife
125 grams of timber

small log

PROCEED
Days needed: 0.5
125 grams of timber
lathe with a steel blade
PROCEED
Days needed: 1
steel hatchet
medium log (6 items)
or medium log (6 items)
steel lathe blade
only in buildings on land

Logs list needing timber now yes but still need many steel tools like lathe with a steel blade that need logs etc.
webrv
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 pm

Re: timber and wood

Postby webrv » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:57 am

a scenario:

you are in a forest, busy with a railway project that require lots of wood, which was directly gather-able with non-steal equipment, at expense of time if using stone axe compared to better tool.

Now wood trees became timber, that needs to be converted to wood first before applying to railway project, an extra tedious step.
To make the conversion these mills need be built and require steel tools..

process definitely not easier, agreed. In fact, it looks quite intimidating at the moment as to reason to no longer play. there were a couple of newspawns in the forest that seemed only interested in gathering wood also initially (perhaps to build basic wooden cart for transport etc) when it was still wood, then when it changed to timber they all died of, I guess not wanting to bother making conversion tools or machines first to convert the timber to wood for cart. My own character barely even logged in this week because well, a bit stuck because of this scenario. And for those like Wasindear who dont understand what I'm on about, I dont mean stuck as in cant walk/move, else I would have logged a support ticket to teleport out of the tree holding me. These are other kinds of restrictive barriers meant to simplify but end up over-complicating things. I understand you probably wanted to troll the forum with some kind of joke, but we are sitting with a real 'problem' here, game-wide.
Wasindear
Game Mechanics/Programming Dept. (Asp)
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:24 am

Re: timber and wood

Postby Wasindear » Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:05 pm

I wasn't trying to make a joke, but I genuinely thought your complaint was one thinking there was some Catch 22 that had been inadvertently set up.

I agree that there are more steps, but am personally rather neutral on it. I can see the pros and the cons.
Wasindear
Game Mechanics/Programming Dept. (Asp)
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:24 am

Re: timber and wood

Postby Wasindear » Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:21 pm

I think that perhaps reverting wood at the same rates but keeping the high end machines might be the best solution.

What is your suggestion for the solution? Would your preference be to revert completely to how it used to be?
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Rocket Frog
Game Mechanics Member
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Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: timber and wood

Postby Rocket Frog » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:30 pm

Hello webrv :)

Sorry for the brief delay.
I'm just writing to you here to let you know that what you pointed was right and was changed the moment you pointed it out. Probably my answer hasn't been clear enough then.

Right now you don't need logs for any of the new machines.
More than that, the most basic machine (let's call it Tier 1) allows a rate of wood production similar to the past rates, talking in Days Of Work. The following tiers allow an even better production.

In rough numbers, with the most basic tool you end with the same rates as before. With the best tools and the best machines you get around the double amount of wood compared to the best rate you had in the past using the best possible tool.

In other words: you don't need logs, nor any steel tool. Any steel tool is optional. Your rates are from above the same to the double compared to those of before.

In addition you can get wood in places that were not suitable before for gathering it because timber was not processable.

While I understand the issue of requiring a machine for converting timber to wood, the most basic machine takes little time and few resources and allows for a rate that's literally the same as before counting with the time it would take you to get the timber.
The only possible scenario that would see a disadvantage would be a nomad loner probably.
webrv
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 pm

Re: timber and wood

Postby webrv » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:57 pm

Right, see I had to cancel my project that read

Progress: 0.0 percent
Days required: 1.5
Project type: Manual
Materials: stone (2000 total grams required)
wood (2000 total grams required)
Objects: medium log (4 total items required, 4 items still needed)


restarting it resulted in logs changed to timber there, thanks.
Materials: stone (2000 total grams required)
timber (1000 total grams required)
wood (2000 total grams required)
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Rocket Frog
Game Mechanics Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: timber and wood

Postby Rocket Frog » Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:08 am

webrv wrote:Right, see I had to cancel my project that read

Progress: 0.0 percent
Days required: 1.5
Project type: Manual
Materials: stone (2000 total grams required)
wood (2000 total grams required)
Objects: medium log (4 total items required, 4 items still needed)


restarting it resulted in logs changed to timber there, thanks.
Materials: stone (2000 total grams required)
timber (1000 total grams required)
wood (2000 total grams required)


Yeah. That's one of the sempiternal principles of Cantr, for good or bad.
Any started project will remain the same, even if the conditions that led to that project changed.
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miirkaelisaar
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Location: Desert.

Re: timber and wood

Postby miirkaelisaar » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:55 pm

Also why is "lighting a cozy fire" suddenly manual and not automatic? I can bake bread without working on it but now I have to tend a fire that burns by itself and I intended to burn out and not be fed consistently? This makes zero sense, please tell me this was a bug and they didn't think it was a good idea to make lighting a fire manual when it's one of the few automatic projects that make sense. You definitely can't bake bread or cookies automatically in real life, if you're going to change that you may as well nix automatic projects altogether, rather than having it make no sense.
“No institution can function smoothly if there is disunity among it's members.”
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Bmot
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Location: The Hague - Netherlands

Re: timber and wood

Postby Bmot » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:20 pm

miirkaelisaar wrote:Also why is "lighting a cozy fire" suddenly manual and not automatic? I can bake bread without working on it but now I have to tend a fire that burns by itself and I intended to burn out and not be fed consistently? This makes zero sense, please tell me this was a bug and they didn't think it was a good idea to make lighting a fire manual when it's one of the few automatic projects that make sense. You definitely can't bake bread or cookies automatically in real life, if you're going to change that you may as well nix automatic projects altogether, rather than having it make no sense.


That was a mistake, fixed :)
Richard Dawkins wrote:We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?

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