Philosophical Goal of Cantr; Self-Serving or Superb Society

[Piscator]

Skills speeding up the progress of a project can work, but only if they are aquired and not more or less assigned at random.

[randognsac]

Quote from Dudel
Disease should have been implemented for this reason though Sneezing is only an annoyance and the eating sickness is due to an inaction and has no cure other than to act.

I rarely have character that aren't working but still get the eating sickness. The only way to get rid of it is to rest.

[SekoETC]

I think what he meant is that you get the eating sickness from failing to do something and if you do that something, people won't get ill anymore until a new something appears and needs to be taken care of. Once you have the illness, it goes like a train and will stop when it gets to the end station. But since some trains are faster than others, the duration of the trip may vary.

[returner]

There are a lot of good ideas here which I might summarise later and repost, perhaps some can be evaluated and then suggested in the appropriate forum? The majority of ideas posted by everyone here seem to steer Cantr in a good, positive direction.

I think we (well, the staff) have done really well in finally setting up Cantr. We have a few odds and ends relating to consumerism (ie degradation and destruction of tools, machines, vehicles and buildings) but we're almost there.
After that, primarily we should look at the limitations which are hindering the progression of society. For example, groups that control a certain region seem to die out eventually - which is understandable - but why can't we look into why? Let's do just that, and perhaps from that we can ascertain the cause, which will assist in future suggestions and developments.

I know this may come across as 'offensive'(?) to hard-core roleplayers at first - but I believe there needs to be more visual cues.
One example is building location. At the moment, it's somewhat painful to have to read through a list of buildings.. it's not very fun and it is an eyesore (I hope we can all agree on this much?). What if we had a grid system, and within that grid we could visually see the location of the buildings. What are the pros with this, and what are the cons, in your opinion? Do the benefits outweigh the negatives?
This may also allow for 'town roads' or 'town paths' to be built within the town.. purely for aesthetic purposes of course.
This gives towns something to do.
Also, this has set me on a new thought-train.. Cantr needs more aesthetic additions to the game, such as different building types or additions to buildings (windows have been suggested, lanterns, paint). These sorts of additions could open up an opportunity for specific jobs, ie a home improvement person.

Etc. Thoughts?

[SekoETC]

I think a grid system would be cool, then places could be grouped together, like government buildings in one place, private residences in another place... I think if towns had a limited number of building slots and in order to get more, you would have to clear out vegetation and tighten the soil, that would encourage people to build extensions into existing buildings rather than everyone making their own. A rectangular grid would most likely be easier to implement than a circle (or a spiral), then you could define the cost of adding another row or a column by the length of that row or column and the terrain type. Tools used for extending the area could also be defined by terrain type. For mountains and hills, you'd need a pickaxe, a shovel for deserts and beaches, a dungfork or something for grasslands, an axe for forests. Maybe shovels for swamps for digging ditches to lead away the water. Extending the region could also require sand and stone for hardening the land. It would make things more expensive but if people didn't want to invest in clearing new building slots, they would just have to populate new towns.

[Doug R.]

Grids have been suggested before in various contexts, and I have no problems with little villages with cute icons for the different building types that you can see. We've already broken the no graphics precedent with Seko's clothing display project (even though it's not implemented yet). Having the privilege of knowing a bit of Jos's mind on the subject, at least to him, Cantr and graphics are not mutually exclusive. Where I would personally draw the line would be where the graphics cease being an aid to imagination and instead replace the imagination (although Jos seems alright with this also).

A town laid out on a grid, with icons representing buildings I like.
I want clothing dyes.
House paint would be nice.
I want visual representations of art (that you have to see - not hidden in a note or described by a landmark).
I want music to be better (somehow)
I want there always to be something that can be done, but doesn't have to be (doing the repetitive mundane consumes probably 95% of our lives irl, and also leads to the bulk of our human interactions. Ever notice how hard it is to make small talk in Cantr? This is why.)
I want clothing to have use-based deterioration (characters should want to change into work clothes, etc, not be making a sword in their silk dress).
I want to see my skill system implemented (I really like my skill system).
I want to see weather effects to give clothing more than aesthetic use.
I want to see real agriculture - not just pulling stuff out of the ground infinitum.
I want to see resource depletion (although I admit that the current level of players would make such a system moot - there's not nearly enough characters to negatively impact an ecosystem or deplete a resource).

These are some of my wants.

[returner]

You have absolutely fantastic ideas Doug, I don't disagree with a single one (though, then again, I rarely disagree with anything you say.. always very well thought-out).

And I cannot support you more when you speak about the line between imagination and graphics. It would absolutely destroy the 'essence' or 'spirit' of this game.
I think we can move Cantr a lot closer to the line, though. The town grid is one example, as the annoying list is actually in part why I suggested the 10x vehicle weight - the clutter makes me feel uncomfortable.

A small amount of tiredness (0.25% or less?) could be implemented if a town grid was implemented, as to justify time spent walking between buildings. Currently, the stacking of buildings in a list leaves little to imagine how exactly the town is laid out. I've always believed the buildings are directly in front of you, merged together like when two objects in a 3D game mesh together.. and all the items are the same, in one spot.. along with vehicles, resources and people.

A grid would not affect new towns. It would explain why towns are so far apart - it's because each town is actually a clearing in that location, and it's the perfect place for a town. That's why Cantrians can walk there, and can't free-roam. So culturing the land would offer an expansion bonus for additional buildings.

Man, a grid-system would be a lot of work..

[trojo]

A rectangular grid would most likely be easier to implement than a circle (or a spiral), then you could define the cost of adding another row or a column by the length of that row or column and the terrain type.

A hexagonal grid would have the best of both worlds. It's closer to a natural-looking round shape than a square would be, but also would have the ease of being divisible into neat rows of hexagonal cells (well, it would be neat in some directions and zig-zaggy in the others, but close enough).

[Drael]

Actually doug said quite a few things I was going to say.

this game should be about playing shop keepers, craftsmen, city guards, farmers and cooks,

I think, that the complete boringness and uselessness of some of these jobs currently is really where the effort should be spent to return cantr to being about these types of characters.

Like -

Tailors: weather effects and usage wear (thanks doug) for clothing. Neato would be some custom descriptioning to allow creatively in the work, and dyes (thanks doug)

Craftsmen, weaponsmiths etc: Again some level of customing (if not a description, perhaps a list of features. Whatever, just something to allow RP and creativity). I know people hate people talking about FTO, but FTO has a bunch of objects called "writables", that includes statues and other art type objects as well. My character in cantr has made a whole RP around carving statues of animals and gods (And others with him). This customing really adds alot to RP potential of artisans, religions, culture, craftsmen, weapons, political groups and many many other things.

Farmers: As doug says again, real argiculture. Planting seeds, variable crop returns, different methods etc.

Cooks: Stop people eating raw potatoes and the like! People need a balanced diet. Food is more dependant on preparation.

Medicine: as Dudel says, sickness should need cures, and sicknesses should be complex enough (or vaguely described) to need a medical person to assess them, and choose the right cure. Perhaps some tools could be used for diagnosis. And stop onions curing people, so herbs and doctors are NEEDED. Need is very important here, as well as variability and complexity of the job.

So anyways, the point is currently these jobs are largely boring and repetitive to perfrom, allow for little real RP, and often arent even needed.........But as jobs, they really should be engaging, allowing RP, and continually rewarding to RP. Many of these ideas have been resisted, mainly out of fear of change, while your farmer clicks a few times and enters a number over and over.........

[Dudel]

The problem, Drael and Doug and returner, is that with the way Cantr is currently set up those things wont happen any time soon. It is honestly more likely a different game will come along before such implementations in Cantr are accepted and balanced to the point where half the playerbase isn't alienated (Especially considering that Cantr sorta NEEDS its dedicated players.).

Each of the items on the above couple of directories would require so many itty-bitty baby steps that by the time their final conclusion was set up it just honestly wouldn't matter much any longer. If this was still 2005, things would be rationally different on that stand point though.

Weather effects can NOT be to harmful, considering characters appear at the age of twenty and naked while having zero ties to their home (And even with certain family systems via other games this doesn't work as PLAYERS are usually self serving.) I've seen weather systems only force people inside (beyond Cantr "clones"), which leads to boredom for players and quick stagnation of areas/people/jobs/etc. With Cantr being slow paced, this is especially a problem because it would mean rain/snow/desert wind/whatever would have to last for a few real life DAYS if not more. This way if there was/is some form of side effect only prolonged exposure (as with reality) would honestly cause harm.

With sickness, much more then the two now would simply cause headache, especially if it was highly contagious and/or caused DEATH. Then again, even the eating/fainting sickness is otherwise ignored unless people are "starved for food". Mostly events in game are due to PLAYER annoyance and such a mechanic should urge to play not annoy by being a waste. That means interactive cures rather than one dude hiding in a building making random treatments and applying it to the sick.... OR RATHER giving it to the sick and hope they eat it rather than ignore the problem and hope it goes away (which would most likely be the case if not a horribly harsh side effect to the illness but then you got player issues which can not honestly be fixed without altering the new mechanic.)

Craftsmanship and customization doesn't work with the way Cantr is because: a battle axe is a battle axe is a battle axe is a ba- you get the point. Don't matter how awkward, novice or expert anyone is... they can build as though it didn't matter. Don't think customization is the way to go (especially since it would simply clutter the world with more worthless garbage no one actually wants) and rather make it so anyone lower then skillful CAN'T make/do certain things and make experts can ONLY make certain things. This would QUICKLY create a job system/class of people. Though with the randomness of skills would suck on a player level because the food shortage would quickly dwindle as NO ONE actually WANTS to be a farmer (as there isn't anything to it). So now there must be incentive for a PLAYER to have their character be a farmer. What incentive? I couldn't tell you, but the game (itself) shouldn't be difficult to play a job (provided skill level allowed it) but "difficult to master" which means people who put for the time get rewarded (as they should and do, already). That all meaning that the expert farmer should be able to get as much fun (if not more than) as the expert swordsman/fighter.

And that'll do.

.....I think.