Renewable or inexhautible resources? Animals too

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Jur Schagen
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Postby Jur Schagen » Wed May 30, 2007 12:42 pm

Nothing will stimulate trade in the game. This has been proven already with some other implementations.


That's because a lot of stuff has been implemented half-heartedly, and I take full blame for that. Stimulating trade is about creating scarcity. We have tried that, but every time we implemented something creating scarcity (deterioration, slots, etc) there was a player riot because noone wanted their chars that lived in luxury to have a hard time... so the change was partially reverted (deter rates decreased, the in-repair bug not fixed, slots increased). Now, it is very seldom that one of my chars comes to a loc where all slots are occupied. There still is no scarcity in Cantr except in some wild lands on the edges of civilization, full of animals. Furthermore, any implementation that will create scarcity will lead to another player revolt.

Luckily, the RD has taken over some of this task by removing focus from iron to some other metals for advanced tools, so there's more than about five resources that are worth anything. Hence, some more trade is taking place.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Change for the sake of change should be highly discouraged. Change should only happen when it is to solve a clearly defined problem, or else it will create new problems.


I would say that Cantr has a lot of current problems. Towns are stagnating everywhere because of the rich/poor gap (als known as the key/no-key gap), and the failure to create anything different than a feudal society (yes, even the "democracy" and "council" style governments are feudal; there are maybe 10 non-feudal towns in all of Cantr, mainly because there is a powerfull char there with a zeal for experiment). Considering that the rich have little to strive for after they have motorized transport, and thus tend to become sleepy, while the young are frustrated because they don't get responses from the old... oh wait I'm ranting. Just don't say that Cantr doesn't have any problems.

Oh - and what is Cantr, a MMORPG or a simulator?

To me it's primarily a game. The goal is to give players a good time, or they will leave. There's little to simulate if there's no players. After that, it can be seen as a simulator too. That don't mean it's "just another MMORPG", the game has unique attributes that many MMORPG's don't have. But it certainly ain't perfect.

And in Cantr, there is no magic nor fantasy of any kind, so the only thing we have to deal with is the reality. So we need a diverse and full of options reality.


That's about names, really. I'm not just talking about two people going to a mountain to dig some stone with their bare hands, take it down to the valley, and build a house with it (how real is that?), and other things like Doug said. If these were called "mana" and "spells" it wouldn't make the slightest difference. I'm mainly talking about something that we'll never solve, which is the value of life. There's no intrinsic drive to survive in the chars, like there is in every "real" living organism. If the player finds a char to lead a dull life (or the player focus moves on to RL, another game, whatever), he'll often starve him; this is by far the prime death cause in the game. This leads to all kinds of in-game problems (noone can expect a trusted servant to actually survive, etc). Cantr has nothing to do with realism.

The only thing you need to develop rich societies are people. The game infrastructure as it is is already totally sufficient, or else the game would have gone under years ago.


I disagree. These "people" need "goals", preferrably goals that are inherently conflicting, yet require cooperation. There are a lot of places/chars that do nothing but gather potatoes and chat; how is that any different from any free-form phpbb game? Cantr should be more than that.
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psymann
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Re: Renewable or inexhautible resources? Animals too

Postby psymann » Wed May 30, 2007 12:42 pm

1. What will happen to the (RL) mankind when hydrocarbons become depleted?
2. Is it Cantr a civilization simulator?
3. Do you like challenges?

1. We'll have to find something else to burn. With a bit of luck, as time progresses, our technologies will improve to help us invent other things to use, and other ways of generating energy.

2. In some ways, yes. In other ways, no, it's just a game. You will notice that in Cantr, technology does not advance. A bone spear in 1912 is just as useful and modern as a bone spear in the year 19.

3. In a game, I like my challenges to be fair and achievable.

First of all, I agree with hf - we already have limited resources. There are various towns where resource gathering is retricted because there are too few slots available for the number of people that want them. My young characters have already found woods where they can't chop wood due to this.

Another issue I have is that of allowing younger characters to have a chance. If older characters have completely exhausted all supplies of limestone, haematite and coal that lie close to each other, then newer characters must spend a lot longer to make iron, and will always be at a disadvantage to older characters. I don't envisage this encouraging new players to stick around.

I don't believe that resources should run out.



However, there is an issue here regarding machines. As far as I am aware, digging for limestone uses a resource slot, but quarrying for it on a machine does not. I have seen a town with five limestone quarries. This means:
- easily ten extra slots (two people per quarry) making the resource slot limit pretty irrelevant.
- faster production of limestone so people need to spend less time collecting limestone, and hence freeing up those slots even quicker

This leads to a state where anything with a related machine can be collected in limitless quantities, undoing the effect of the resource slots. That town with the limestone quarries clearly used to have rules regarding resource collection judging from an old note. It is still busy, but there are no more problems with this as so many people now use machines and leave resource slots available.

I believe that working on a resource-gathering machine should occupy a resource slot. Or, alternatively, there should be a limit to the number of machines that can be built in any one town, and all areas with machine-able resources should have their resource slots reduced by a couple.

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Postby SekoETC » Wed May 30, 2007 1:00 pm

The machine should take the resource slot wether or not it's being used (since it's built on the source) and it should be possible to demolish the machine to free up the slot.
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psymann
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Postby psymann » Wed May 30, 2007 1:33 pm

SekoETC wrote:The machine should take the resource slot wether or not it's being used (since it's built on the source) and it should be possible to demolish the machine to free up the slot.


No - because resource slots are generic. Building an unused limestone mine in the limestone cliffs shouldn't stop you from picking daisies in the same town. Until there are a specified number of slots per resource (which is an option I suppose) then I don't agree.

You don't currently lose a resource slot just because someone is holding a shovel with intent to dig...

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Postby Sicofonte » Wed May 30, 2007 2:19 pm

Some resources are mutually exclusive:

If you grow corn in a field, you can't grow daisies there, nor digging for stone.


So, if you destroy a field for building up a mine, it should take one (or more) slots permanently.

With or without having seperate slots for different resources.


[¬¬]
But why?
Just for the shake of realism?
[/¬¬]
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psymann
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Postby psymann » Wed May 30, 2007 2:55 pm

Bah - if I go somewhere and find both limestone and daisies and corn available, it doesn't mean that there is one stony field, and I can choose to sow corn seed, or daisy seed, or dig up the limestone.

Surely it means there is a field of corn, a field of daisies, and a rocky lump of limestone. Building a quarry would happen on the limestone area, not in the middle of the daisy field.

If they're using the quarry, then the noise/fumes/pile-of-limestone-piling-up might prevent someone from collecting in the nearby field (ie use up a resource slot). If they're not using the machine, then you can collect daisies right next to it without a problem - if you don't use it for a couple of years, you'll probably get daisies growing in the thing! (ie not use up a resource slot).

Similarly in reverse, if someone is picking daisies right in the middle of your quarry, you'd not be able to use the quarry. If they're sitting at the side of the field waving a pair of scissors with intent-to-cut, then that's not going to stop someone quarrying.

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Postby Sicofonte » Wed May 30, 2007 3:27 pm

Psymann, what I trying to explain is that, IRL, if there is a forest over an hematite deposit, and you dig for the hematite, you will destroy the forest.

And that is the "logic" behind the shared slots in Cantr.


Bah - if I go somewhere and find both limestone and daisies and corn available, it doesn't mean that there is one stony field, and I can choose to sow corn seed, or daisy seed, or dig up the limestone.

If you go somewhere and you find limestone, daises and corn available, it is because someone have been there growing that daises and corn, and there is a rocky lump of limestone near.
But, if the daises are growing over the limestone (i.e. slots are shared), for gathering limestone you should remove (destroy) the daises.

In fact, it is what it means in Cantr (at the momment):
Seven slots = seven fields
Seven people gathering corn = seven fields growing corn (and not daises nor digging for stone)

Slots are not seperate, so slots are not seperate -shrugs-

I don't like it, I do think slots should be seperate for each resource, I have told it before. Gut right now, as slots are...
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Postby psymann » Wed May 30, 2007 10:14 pm

Hmm, well your "logic" doesn't really make sense since you don't destroy the daisies if you mine the limestone - if you then go and pick daisies afterwards, they are plenty to be found, so they can't be destroyed.

The resources never run out - therefore they are not destroyed - the limit is how many people can be working in the area at one time. So you don't destroy the daisies, you just make it impossible to pick them while some guy is wandering around weilding a shovel digging up the ground around you. The system as it is must be to do with how much room you have for people to work in, not in what is actually available - since the availability never ceases.

Anyway, let's just agree on this bit:

"I do think slots should be seperate for each resource"

and then, I think, it would be an obvious one to make the machine take up one of the resource slots - maybe even permanently as Seko says, but I don't see that it's necessary to do that, you can still take a shovel into a quarry and hack away if you're that odd.

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Postby Sicofonte » Wed May 30, 2007 11:22 pm

It is not my logic what have no sense. Just my English, that even giving synonims, I can hit the idea. It seems ¬¬.

We are talking about the same concept, with different words.

The amount of people working, the fields that can be worked by people.

And you remove ("destroy") the daises of this fields while you are digging for limestone. Not the resource forever.
When you stop digging and start growing daises, you have daises again, but not limestone (it is under the daises growing "project").

This is what I have to think in order to find some logic explanation in this system.

Do you have a better one? I'm forward to listen it :)


BTW, I have no power of decission about this matter (nor others), otherwise, would you think that I would be making so much noise?
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