Why Cantr failed

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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sherman
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby sherman » Wed May 02, 2018 6:10 am

If not done for everyone that would be useful for players at least to see what happened while offline
Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning.
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curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:15 pm

I'm bumping this because for some odd reason, the game always seems to be a little more active when it's 'live' and right now..? My game sucks balls..!! Yes, I am aware I have supported the game in this thread in the past but, I have changed my mind now.

Two points:
I am struggling with a couple of characters because what 'I' know OOC, they clearly don't and separation of these two sources of knowledge is becoming plain annoying... and
There is an increasing evidence base of what can only be viewed as some kind of 'player dislike' in the game now and I don't like it. Sure, you can 'hem and haw' all you like about this being vague but, it will/should make more sense to some than others.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:13 am

curious wrote:I'm bumping this because for some odd reason, the game always seems to be a little more active when it's 'live' and right now..? My game sucks balls..!! Yes, I am aware I have supported the game in this thread in the past but, I have changed my mind now.

Two points:
I am struggling with a couple of characters because what 'I' know OOC, they clearly don't and separation of these two sources of knowledge is becoming plain annoying... and
There is an increasing evidence base of what can only be viewed as some kind of 'player dislike' in the game now and I don't like it. Sure, you can 'hem and haw' all you like about this being vague but, it will/should make more sense to some than others.
Taking your two points as one, I have become increasingly aware of OOC influence in the game, as well. I'm not sure if it's the same as yours, curious, because I really don't quite understand what you're saying. Here's what I see happening, though.

In the busy, noisy, major cities, what I will call the Super Role Players (SRP/s) dominate everything. It's easy to tell the SRPs because of their elaborately descriptive role play which goes on forever. A more subtle player doesn't have a chance to succeed or even be noticed because, if they do manage to get a word in edge-wise, they are mostly ignored, either deliberately or because there is so much chatter.

From observing the interactions of the characters, I believe that most, if not all of the SRPs know each other OOC, know each other's characters and the established characters then provide major support to the newspawn SRP characters. Also, if an SRP is visiting for trade, they get spectacularly generous deals and gifts from their new SRP "friends."

If the quieter characters remain in the town, they become lifeless, worker-droids for the SRP elites. If the quieter players move to a quieter town, there will still be at least a few SRPs who dominate all role play and control the resources of the town which, again, they pretty much reserve for newspawn SRPs or visiting SRPs.

Time and time again, I've seen the leaders of small towns ignore the needs of loyal workers who have been trying to get ahead for years with little reward. Then, a fast-talking stranger will come to town and the leader (for no logical reason) will give them a house and/or the key to a snazzy vehicle, clothes, tools and valuable resources.

I believe this is indicative of OOC collusion and I think it has contributed to the loss of players and the downward spiral of the game. It is a form of theft, oppression and class warfare which, strangely enough, mirrors the economy of the United States (and maybe the world).

This is very dispiriting to non-SRP players and, as I've said before, I am one of them. I have lost a lot of interest in the game but I'm still trying to find meaningful lives for my characters. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to escape the OOC/SRP influence.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:39 am

Well... without quoting you or explaining myself any further (I see no need to and I have already received shit over my post)... I don't disagree with you, PaintedbyRoses.

I have a caveat (or at least I believe I do), in that I'm not sure all in-game character help is entirely manipulative. That said... if the parts of the game I see as still legitimate turn out not to be... I will just hit the 'X' because... all will truly be lost.

I'm not sure where people's motivations to 'super' or 'over' play this game come from. I suspect they just got it wrong at the outset and now see an avenue to pursue it, or (and following the obvious and recent poaching attempts to fuel a new MMORPG game... in beta) they simply don't care for the enjoyment of others out with the new environment..?

Either way... once this game gets destroyed beyond what is useful to me... or fun to me... I won't be going there. I won't be going anywhere. I may just reinstall the f**king time I seem to waste on it now back into my life, and do something productive.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Tiamo » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:30 am

PaintedbyRoses, curious, if all this happens as described, it is a blatant CRB. You could report it.

I haven't noticed this kind of behaviour around my chars, but they are not in the EZ.
I think ...
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Moonflame » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:04 am

This is not CRB, it's how the game is played. Kudos Roses for bringing up your points, they deserve their own thread.

I expect it is rare that a player is deliberately helping another. A leader sees a lot of young people and 90% of them die before they hit 30. A player is not motivated to spend their real life time encouraging every single young character, because it does not significantly affect the death rate.

Roses' SRP's are players who are conditioned into interacting with the kinds of people who are less likely to either die or be an RP prat. Players respond to subconscious cues that indicate the character will not waste resources given, or sleep for a long time holding tools given. Newer players, and just some players in general do not follow this subtle playstyle and it can be frustrating to watch others waltz in and achieve things in 2 seconds when this is a slow game.

That means a lot of decent characters get ignored until they have played the slow game for ingame decades to prove they can stick around.

Additionally due to the small playerbase, one brief conversation on the forums or Discord can hint at who you might possibly be playing, and even subconsciously I believe this often affects characters and who they interact with.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:40 am

Moonflame wrote:This is not CRB, it's how the game is played.

I agree with this.

Currently, the game seems to have a critical mass of players who... have to be the best, the smartest, the 'loudest' (by that, I mean have the strongest presence) and so on... they are essentially trying to 'win' a game that doesn't have a high score or a finishing line.

If there are conversations and/or some kind of encouragement taking place about this 'winning'..? Those 'have' to be taking place OOC.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Estaar » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:43 am

I am grateful to all of you for addressing this situation, and I find all of you make sense in what you're saying.

My own characters have experienced the situations that Painted is describing, some have given up in them, some have just moved on until they found a place where they could grow up at their own pace. I still don't feel comfortable in very loud cities, but in some others I've stuck around, working quietly, sometimes participating, but never in the center fo things, even admiring the 'loudmouths' from afar.

And this has allowed me to see that Moonflame is right as well when she says that even quieter people become part of the fabric of a town at some point. This is easier to do in those towns that were set up in a way that did not force every newspawn to beg for ressources or tools immediately and repetedly. Towns that had bins outside containing the the most typical materials (and these by this date also include leather and iron and cotton or hemp cloth in a lot of them) and tools (not just the bone ones, either), and a notice board inviting new citizens to help themselves to what they needed and work on projects that were some up in larger number.

And then at some point, the loud well practised roleplayers move on (or die) and all of a sudden, there's space for the quieter ones, and the most extraordinary things develop.

But I can understand that waiting this long can be discouraging to many new players, especially if things feel cliquish on top of that. And I'd like to remind all of you that it is okay to talk to PD (by pm here or in discord) if you have the feeling that things go beyond what Moonflame describes, and into OOC co-ordination.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:37 pm

curious wrote:Currently, the game seems to have a critical mass of players who... have to be the best, the smartest, the 'loudest' (by that, I mean have the strongest presence) and so on... they are essentially trying to 'win' a game that doesn't have a high score or a finishing line.

If there are conversations and/or some kind of encouragement taking place about this 'winning'..? Those 'have' to be taking place OOC.
I, actually, don't agree that they are trying to "win" at Cantr. I think they are just gifted role players for whom exceptional role play comes effortlessly (or so it seems) and who love having an active story line and want to play it as much as possible. I greatly admire their skill and I don't begrudge them their active voices. It's just the fact that they seem to be favoring each other's characters over other characters that bothers me.

I don't know what CRB stands for but it seems to mean "talking about the game and sharing info in RL?" Maybe there isn't much CRB going on. Maybe these players can simply recognize each other by stylistic choices or little "tells." After only 6 months, even I can recognized some shared writing or grammar quirks that make me think that two or more characters have the same player so I'm sure it's pretty easy for the long-time players to recognize another long-time player's characters.
Moonflame wrote:This is not CRB, it's how the game is played. Kudos Roses for bringing up your points, they deserve their own thread.

I expect it is rare that a player is deliberately helping another. A leader sees a lot of young people and 90% of them die before they hit 30. A player is not motivated to spend their real life time encouraging every single young character, because it does not significantly affect the death rate.

Roses' SRP's are players who are conditioned into interacting with the kinds of people who are less likely to either die or be an RP prat. Players respond to subconscious cues that indicate the character will not waste resources given, or sleep for a long time holding tools given. Newer players, and just some players in general do not follow this subtle playstyle and it can be frustrating to watch others waltz in and achieve things in 2 seconds when this is a slow game.

That means a lot of decent characters get ignored until they have played the slow game for ingame decades to prove they can stick around.

Additionally due to the small playerbase, one brief conversation on the forums or Discord can hint at who you might possibly be playing, and even subconsciously I believe this often affects characters and who they interact with.
This makes a lot of sense.

I'm not interested in trying to prove collusion or whatever. I'd just like to see the more experienced, gifted and powerful players take more interest in and take a chance on the "little guys" who are trying to find their way. Maybe be prepared for the possibility (or likely hood) that they will disappoint you and fall into a deep sleep with some of your tools and resources. Drag them into a locked room. Don't feed them. Kill them if necessary.

Here's a distilled version of my rants:
1) Don't ignore the characters who are trying to get your help. Take a chance on them. And not just with resources. Talk to them. Get to know them.
2) Don't favor the gifted role-players so much.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:09 pm

Interesting.
I stand by 'win'... talented role players don't 'hog' or overrun a scene, especially if slower-to-play players still have an active voice in it and just to be 'louder' or more noticeable than other characters... that 'will' eventually turn your more talented players off, and they will just get tired of it.
And before you venture to level an additional criticism... I am aware of different game paces for different players and no... I am not suggesting people wait forever for some players. I am suggesting they don't completely ignore it, just to get back to a play with their OOC 'pals'...'guides'... 'advisers'... whatever you wish to call them.

CRB - Capital Rule Breach... the use of OOC knowledge to influence IC... and I see this in the game.

This game has an element oif 'immediacy' to it now that it never had before for me. I get tired of it... it's a clumsy and selfish play style. We all suffer haste sometimes... take for instance the requirement to hit a travel tick... a char says something and runs... I don't even mind this. It's acceptable... I see it a lot.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Estaar » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:46 pm

curious wrote:This game has an element oif 'immediacy' to it now that it never had before for me. I get tired of it... it's a clumsy and selfish play style.

YES!!!!
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Jos Elkink » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:42 pm

curious wrote:This game has an element oif 'immediacy' to it now that it never had before for me. I get tired of it... it's a clumsy and selfish play style.


So this also refers to the long and fast back-and-forth dialogue between players who are online simultaneously? I would agree with that. I log in once day - and the game was originally designed with once or twice a day in mind, more or less - and indeed have to avoid towns where this is common, unfortunately. It's much faster than the original pace of the game.

Or do you mean something else by immediacy?
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby Wolfsong » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:12 pm

If you guys brought back the concept of minutes, you would cut down on the immediacy element. Limit the minutes enough and you can go back to 1-2 things a day. 120 minutes of play a day is way more than enough for that, maybe even make it 60 minutes of play a day.
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Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby cutecuddlydirewolf » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:44 pm

Wolfsong wrote:If you guys brought back the concept of minutes, you would cut down on the immediacy element. Limit the minutes enough and you can go back to 1-2 things a day. 120 minutes of play a day is way more than enough for that, maybe even make it 60 minutes of play a day.


Oh god no. No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no. That'd make people quit. I know I'd be unhappy.
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curious

Re: Why Cantr failed

Postby curious » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:50 pm

Jos Elkink wrote:
curious wrote:This game has an element oif 'immediacy' to it now that it never had before for me. I get tired of it... it's a clumsy and selfish play style.


So this also refers to the long and fast back-and-forth dialogue between players who are online simultaneously? I would agree with that. I log in once day - and the game was originally designed with once or twice a day in mind, more or less - and indeed have to avoid towns where this is common, unfortunately. It's much faster than the original pace of the game.

Or do you mean something else by immediacy?

In part, I am referring to this.
The fast exchange of dialog will never support the survival of a slower, less time allowance player in the same dialogue. This in itself is not a problem. What is a problem is that when the fast dialogue is completed, the other players in it often just completely forget the fact that anyone else was in it... worse, they will actually just steam ahead with little interest in who was ever joined to it in the first place and, well... just screw them for not keeping up..!
It's not pleasant to watch... it's certainly not something people are going to get involved in, if they have less time. I don't. It's not great game play... fact.
By all means have the fast paced thing... nothing wrong with it but when it's exclusive..? It denies so much of an immersive environment for so many players.

There is another element to the immediacy though... a far wider mindset... it is just a feeling that has crept into the game. Everything from people not even wanting to have their characters 'grow'... go through the things that Cantr life should, to my mind, require. Part of the game for me is watching my chars fail, succeed, fight... idle... develop desires, plans etc... Why the hell people seem so take with having the nicest designer clothes etc before they're 21 is beyond me. God knows... if you don't have a ship by the time you're 25... you just a useless burden.

Maybe I am just old fashioned but I thought the game was meant to be an enjoyable yet sometimes achievable challenge... not a damned chat room where people can ingratiate themselves in celebration of their wealth.

Most of the charcaters I enjoy playing most have very little and are thrilled when they get something they didn't have... and they get little... very little... immediately.

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