Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

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Hommer
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby Hommer » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:47 pm

So this has failed?
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby nateflory » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:44 pm

Hommer wrote:So this has failed?


It was running for a while, back then, but Life Events (moving, divorce, etc) caused me to shut down the old website a few years ago.
However, I've been working on something similar, but hardly finished even beyond logging in properly. I'd forgotten about it, back in 2011? wow. been a while. :)

So I should delete this whole thread. ... but can't quite figure out how to. Any mods wanna help jsut kill the whole thing? Thanks. :)
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby MattWithoos » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:18 pm

Man, seeing Hommer necro all these threads makes me think we should all just collaborate on one project rather than fracturing into a million games. Exactly 0% have succeeded solo and exactly 0% will continue to succeed unless we all work together on it... And not just on code. On a transparent governance model so people feel the authority is fair, that rulings are fair. On open source, so everyone can easily contribute and learn from the code and reuse it. On compelling features and modern design so we can engage more people, more easily.

That turned into a bit of a speech, undoubtably to be lost when the thread goes. Maybe that's my intention. ;)
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby MonkeyPants4736 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:50 pm

The thread should not go, in my opinion. People may still find some aspect of the discussion relevant.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby pulkownikarnold » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:27 pm

MattWithoos wrote:On a transparent governance model so people feel the authority is fair, that rulings are fair.


Or a game like many others, with simple set of rules "1. don't do this" "2. don't do that", without some stupid departments, councils, CEO's of whatever.

MattWithoos wrote: Exactly 0% have succeeded solo and exactly 0% will continue to succeed unless we all work together on it


Your goals are noble, but it will never happen.
I suspect many people would just reuse your code to do something on their own than contribute. Unless your userbase is big enough to handle all possible 3rd party clones, making it open source is a bad idea, especially when you're making a browser game.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby HFrance » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:37 am

MattWithoos wrote:Man, seeing Hommer necro all these threads makes me think we should all just collaborate on one project rather than fracturing into a million games. Exactly 0% have succeeded solo and exactly 0% will continue to succeed unless we all work together on it... And not just on code. On a transparent governance model so people feel the authority is fair, that rulings are fair. On open source, so everyone can easily contribute and learn from the code and reuse it. On compelling features and modern design so we can engage more people, more easily.

That turned into a bit of a speech, undoubtably to be lost when the thread goes. Maybe that's my intention. ;)


What the heck!!! Below is more one idea for a game, oh no!!!


- Know, if you have not done the work Brave New World, of Aldous Huxley, and use this material as backstory, with some progressions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World

- As progression, consider that this type of society and technology (psychosocial standardization, genetic manipulation, cloning, ectogenesis, suppression of spontaneous emotions, etc) has resulted in the spread of a disease characterized by apathy and partial loss of consciousness that may lead to death by starvation, for lack of reaction to the environment or even by multiple organ failure and heart attack.

- As progression, consider that thanks to this same system, humanity has developed technology and power to explore, terraform and colonize other planets, having discovered a smaller planet than Earth, orbiting a red dwarf star in a tidal and almost circular orbit of 24 days.

- As progression, consider that this two conditions led the central government to create a scientific and psycho-social project consisting of colonizing this new planet as an experiment to see if an existence free of such constraints could be the cure of this awareness disease.

- As progression, consider that ectogenesis technology has advanced enough to produce an adult human in the laboratory, not only until the children's age, the psychological manipulation, the sleep-learning and conditioningd had been replaced by the use of microchips implanted.

- Now, consider that the alpha class is responsible for the design and implementation of this project, the beta class for the maintenance and fiscalization of this project, the gamma class for elementary support operations, the delta class being test subject of an intermediate stage and, finally, épsilon class being the test subject itself.

- Consider that in this completely virgin planet, has been built primarily a base of operations, where live and work the betas and gammas. The alphas do not showed up in this planet. Upon completion of the base, come the intermediate zone implementation, wher the Deltas live and work., Next, begin the terraforming and occupation of a free zone, where Épsilon will live.

- The free zone gradually extends to fill out the rest of the planet. Its inhabitants, the Épsilons, live exclusively of natural resources that were made available by terraforming and using them as permit the knowledge they have acquired in their microchips at birth and its natural advancement. There they are free to build their villages, their own laws and institutions, without interference from the Government, with few exceptions. The presence of other classes in this free zone is restricted to special operations or authorized missions.

- In the intermediate zone, administered under government concession to the Deltas, all classes can meet - except for Alpha, which never comes to the planet - to make basic products and exchanges, preparations for entry into the free zone, general discussions, etc.

- In government operations base the Deltas and Epsilons never have access to. Sometimes an Alpha's ship arrives bringing the equipment, materials and special resources that do not exist in the free zone e will be mainly used in the base, in the intermediate zone and in operations like:
---- microchips (news and recicled) to make the implants at the birth of new people;
---- processed food, that is the the best balanced nourishment for Betas and Gammas, with taste of whatever;
---- boring uniform clothing for Betas and Gamas;
---- computers for scientific and administrative services;
---- ATMs for distribution of food, uniforms, other things, besides banking,
---- vehicles, machinery and equipment for terraforming operations and for genetic engineering and settlement of animal and plant species
---- vehicles and weapons for police operations;
---- in short, everything that is not available in the free zone to be collected or produced, since in terraformation fossil fuels and fossil resources are not available, limiting the technological level similar to our medieval era, except by advanced sustainable technologies and renewable energy.

- At the base there are general laws prefixed by Alphas and regulations issued by the Beta, besides intelligent machines and atm's regulating the distribution of tasks for everyone, including the Gama class.

- In the intermediate zone will be available exclusively ATM's for control banking operations. No product or merchandise will be offered via atm's, but people can trade among themselves by direct bartering or using credit operations embedded in their implanted microchips, able to make transactions with each other when banking atm's are present at locatons.

- Money is digital, stored off the planet in the central computer of the Alphas, with values and rates they set. But the inhabitants of the free zone, as they may be too far away from atm's may establish their own money and even print their coins, having as reference the government digital currency.

- Alphas receive no money, because thei are out of that system. Betas receive an annual salary. Gamas receive an annual low salary plus credits for tasks performed under computer, machine or ATM control. Deltas do not receive anything from the Government, they have a paid concession to use one building in the intermediate zone where they can produce and trade. Epsilons are free, at their own risk trying to survive out there.

- When a new person is about to leave the incubator, s/he can choose which class they want to belong: Gama, Delta or Epsilon. As the choice, his/her biology will be completed adapting to the characteristics of the class and getting the implant with microchip. At the beginning of terraforming, only the Gamma class is available. With the creation of the intermediate zone, the Delta class will be released. At the beginning of the formation of the first locations of the free zone will be released Epsilons.

- After receiving his/her microchip, there is a choice of default language. Is the language in which the government spoke to him and which is configured the implant. But the implant contains all the languages of the earth, so that he can freely communicate with people in any language s/he wishes. The official language of government is english.

- Once the microchip configuration finish (with some cash credits!), with name and date of birth, etc, the new person, whatever the class, is introduced in the intermediate zone. There may be Social Clubs maintained by Deltas who speak their primary language, where it can be inserted into his/her new life and know everything that people have to share about the outside world.

- But if s/he is a Beta or Gama, it should not be long there talking and shopping because the machines on the govern building are waiting for with tasks. Tasks can be specific to that person, can be generic for a class can be specific to a particular skill required, can be periodic or single, as determined by the programming of the machines made by the Alfas or Betas. Tasks can be signed on a machine and their execution can be made on another machine, including portable, even elsewhere.

- The life of a Beta or Gamma is very boring inside the building. Many responsibilities, too much bureaucracy, all very formal, tasteless, but it is the best way to earn credits without danger or suffering. They can buy in ATMs that balanced food, that uniforms, that special equipment and all that is reserved for these privileged classes. And there is also a lot of things to do, performing well defined tasks, along with active and responsible people. All residents of the building have a place for resting, a locker to store things and a seat in the cafeteria, as well as other necessary facilities, all controlled and maintained by intelligent machines and "taskmen" fellows. Violence and unwanted behaviors are prohibited and repressed by a surveillance system and its taskmen of the Police.

- The life of a Delta is more risky, as it can take damage if they know not how to manage their business. But he breathes air all the time, know more people and more things, talk about all the affairs of the outside world and the gossips and intrigues of the Government people. The Police do not care much of the intermediate zone, provided that people comply with the concession agreements and do not damage the buildings and machines. The laws, regulations and institutions there are made by own Deltas, The only sector more controlled by the government are the access to the zone, not being allowed to enter unauthorized persons to the government building or the exit of people into the free zone carrying material restricted to government when not specified in tasks.

Well, these are the general lines of this game and some differences with Cantr II will be noted:
- Each player can have only one account in the game
- Each account may have up to four characters, since each one is of a different class (Alpha is not a character). Beta characters need special autorization to be created.
- We have 2 different gameplay styles (adventure like on Government, sandbox like on Free Zone), with intercommunication.
- We have an newbie friendly introdutory zone (the intermediate) fully integrated into the game and functional
- We have almost all the players who work for the creation and maintenance of game integrated in the gameplay through their beta and gama characters, working in their administrative tasks through the ingame programmable and inteligent machines, making the administrative task more funny and transparent (clothed by the backstory and roleplay)
- We have some institutions of reference to give some fixed objectives, especially a reference currency unit;
- The game animals and plants are created especially for the environment, it can be completely different from the known terrestrial beings.

A comparison of how the staff would be organized
GAC - alphas
GAB and Department Vice-Chairs - Betas
Department Members - Gama
The structure of existing Cantr departments (Resources, Language, Public Relations, Programming, etc.) were integrated in the structure and organization of ingame Government.

It's all for now, I'm tired.
And excuse me for bad English.
Cantr II is a social simulator. What is not working is due a problem in the society.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby SekoETC » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:20 am

You could prefix that with "if I was to design a game, here's how it would work". Because without a line like that, a person has to read about half of the text before they understand what the heck you are on about, is this another world or is this our world, oh it's an imaginary world? alright. Is this a thought experiment? Oh it's a game. Then a person might go back to read stuff again from a new perspective.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby MattWithoos » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:37 am

Thanks for the TL;DR Seko - I started reading that and was a bit confused.

Thanks for the post, though, HFrance! I've certainly read about Brave New World and some of the concepts are interesting.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby HFrance » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:45 am

Edited. :mrgreen:
Cantr II is a social simulator. What is not working is due a problem in the society.
Cantr is like Vegas - what happens in the game should be in the game.
"It's a virtual world, not a theme park!" (Richard Bartle)
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby nateflory » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:58 pm

I am unsure how to feel about my thread going so strangely off topic. :P

Everthorn Pond died and dried up, but is being restocked in a different valley, as LORE... maybe... someday... with Changes. lol
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby Rmak » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:03 pm

pulkownikarnold wrote:I suspect many people would just reuse your code to do something on their own than contribute. Unless your userbase is big enough to handle all possible 3rd party clones, making it open source is a bad idea, especially when you're making a browser game.


Seems pretty common these days, most people just want to get into the code to copy it.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby MattWithoos » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:17 am

Rmak wrote:
pulkownikarnold wrote:I suspect many people would just reuse your code to do something on their own than contribute. Unless your userbase is big enough to handle all possible 3rd party clones, making it open source is a bad idea, especially when you're making a browser game.


Seems pretty common these days, most people just want to get into the code to copy it.


Uhm, good? That's the whole point of open source. We wouldn't have Mac OSX without Unix being open source. We wouldn't have a lot of very popular things, actually.

Most programmers learn code thanks to the open nature of the industry.

I totally disagree with the idea of squirrelling away your sourcecode if you aren't commercialising your game. If you're trying to make money, sure, keep it a secret as you need the competitive advantage. If not, grow up and share your code. I'd be willing to bet any programmer here has used free resources to learn - some of it open-source code - so it's rich to then make your free game closed source.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby rd1988 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:43 am

MattWithoos wrote:Uhm, good? That's the whole point of open source. We wouldn't have Mac OSX without Unix being open source. We wouldn't have a lot of very popular things, actually.


No, that's not the point. There's a big difference between Unix like projects and Browser based games (or games in general) - Unix ecosystem is used by millions, it's something you can extend and modify for your individual needs - it makes sense because unix is a base for many popular OS.

What's the point in open sourcing your browser game? It's neither an engine, nor a framework or utility... You won't gain much out of it, in fact, you will lose your time on writing comments/doing code auditing. If people have ideas, awesome, let's organise a website where they could submit them, and if enough people vote, the development team would quickly implement it.

summary is: Open source is good, but not for everything, and certainly not for browser games.

If your game is good enough, other people would just steal your work/ make a direct copy, and redirect other players to it. That's not fun. Look at some open-sourced browser based games - internet is flooded with their copies. and almost no one makes a pull requests to them.

People have right to do with their project whatever they want, open source or not, telling them to "grow up" won't change it.
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby Hommer » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:11 am

:mrgreen: damn well this all seems interesting enough i dont know much about codes and programming and such i play these games on my phone for them moment and are always looking for browser games to play im willing to beat test some tho
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Re: Everthorn Pond - alphabeta testing! :)

Postby MattWithoos » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:17 am

rd1988 wrote:No, that's not the point. There's a big difference between Unix like projects and Browser based games (or games in general) - Unix ecosystem is used by millions, it's something you can extend and modify for your individual needs - it makes sense because unix is a base for many popular OS.

Agreed, but you missed the point the quote was reacting to. That is: Open-sourcing something because others may use it and modify it shouldn't scare you. In fact it should be the reason you open-source it.

rd1988 wrote:What's the point in open sourcing your browser game? It's neither an engine, nor a framework or utility...

Thinking like a programmer. If the idea is novel enough, why does it need to fit squarely in a set of tickboxes to release it as open-source?

rd1988 wrote:You won't gain much out of it, in fact, you will lose your time on writing comments/doing code auditing.

Uhm, okay? If you open-source something with the expectation of "getting something" out of it, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

rd1988 wrote:If your game is good enough, other people would just steal your work/ make a direct copy, and redirect other players to it.

It isn't that simple. If you think attracting people to a game is as simple as redirecting other players to it, please join the Cantr Marketing team. The short answer is that it's very hard.

People would only leave if the other game offered something better, or if the original game was rotten from the core. If one or both are true, good, join the other game. I'm confused why this is a problem, especially if you're not monetizing your game and are just doing it for the journey.

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