Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

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Doug R.
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Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Doug R. » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:01 pm

All,

After years of suggestions and player commentary, the game administration has constructed a new combat system that is more fair and also fits Cantr's slow-paced nature. This system was adopted with overwhelming consensus, and we're posting here for a preview period to allow us to address your comments and concerns. It's not really easy to explain, so I'll post the major highlights below, and will let the discussion flesh out the rest.

-Attacking another character will now generate a combat state between those two characters. Upon initiation of the attack, an event is generated, tiredness is applied, but damage is not assessed until either a) the player of the attacked characters logs in and resolves the attack or b) a period of time passes (one day for logged out players, much less for players that are logged in to prevent stalling). Resolving the attack just means that the player of the attacked character clicks a button to finish the attack. We were discussing things like partial defending upon attack resolution, etc., but felt these were over-complications (for now). This doesn't mean that we won't add features in the future.

Developer's note: This guarantees that active characters can never be hurt/killed while off-line (providing you log in once per day), allowing for role-play and the elimination of nasty surprise death notices. It also guarantees that your attacker will be present when you resolve the attack, eliminating hit and hide attacks.

-The combat state is resolved when either the defender resolves it or the attacker cancels it. Canceling the combat state will not regain lost energy, nor will it erase the initial event message. Neither the attacker nor defender can move while in the combat state. Both can speak, consume food, advance projects that they were working on before the initiation of combat, and write and (possibly) pass notes. Other limitations on what a character can/can't do while in the combat state are still being discussed.

Developer's note: Most likely, dragging will have to be disallowed during the combat state. If it were allowed, attacks could be canceled by dragging off the attackers, and then combat would shift even more towards dragging. What we want to avoid is having leaders under massive attack pass off all their possessions to other characters. Attackers should still be able to use surprise as an advantage, and have a fair chance at obtaining the dropped possessions of the deceased. We are currently discussing how to do this in a fair way.

-Attacks will no longer be limited to one per day, although tiredness from each attack will be increased.

Developer's note: This allows the resolution of combat between characters that are awake at the time. We can now have proper duels, contests, epic battles, (and I guess suicides) etc.

-Attacks are resolved at the state the attacker was in at the time the attack was made. Dead characters will enter a near-death state where only talking is possible. When death actually will be finalized is still under discussion.

-Implementation of stomach capacity to prevent unlimited healing/energy regeneration.

-Road combat will be a state of suspended motion. When attacks are resolved, on the next travel tick, vehicles will be put where they should have been had they not been stopped.

Possible Future Additions:

-Guarding another character
-Agility skill that would would increase odds of not being hit
-Integration of dragging into the new system, as opposed to being explicitly excluded
-Division of weapons into ranged and melee categories, further diversification based on skill

(LD/Liaison Officers, please translate this when you can and start a new topic on it in your language forum. Please post the link to that thread here. Thanks!)

Hamsters is nice. ~Kaylee, Firefly
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TatteredShoeLace
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby TatteredShoeLace » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:16 pm

1) Can I prevent myself from being dragged by attacking myself and logging out?
2) How does it work in a multiple character brawl? Can char A attack B and C at the same time?
3) Can char A attack B and before it's resolved have B attack C?
*ono
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby *ono » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:18 pm

Was typing the same thing...
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EchoMan
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby EchoMan » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:20 pm

TatteredShoeLace wrote:1) Can I prevent myself from being dragged by attacking myself and logging out?
2) How does it work in a multiple character brawl? Can char A attack B and C at the same time?
3) Can char A attack B and before it's resolved have B attack C?


1. Attack on self doesn't have to be a combat "project". If it is we have to disallow the disallowed dragging in those cases, to avoid abuse.

2. Yes. Each attack is an individual "project".

3. B must resolve the attack from A, before he is allowed to initiate new combat.
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viktor
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby viktor » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:42 pm

well all changes receive friction, lets see what here may be frictitious....
now, if the attacker sends an attack, and it takes 6 hours for the target to login, resolve and then wake teir buddies to drag the sleeping attacker, that one thing will nerf warfare.
turning combat into a project which collectively it is when you think abut it but each attack becomming a project like movement also totally nerfs war. i have difficulty how this will do other than cushy cush the gameplay, i agree it was too nasty originally when one person could waltz in and exterminate an entire city and move on, we fixed that for the better, something not as brutal but still feasable and doable.
with this combat change, there is NO pursuit of attackers because they get 'taken care' of as soon as the combat resolves.
if you are an innocent bystander that gets attacked by invaders you have to choose between, retaliating which in most countries is a right and then be standing out there like a punching bag waiting for everyone to beat on you while the combat resolves, OR go run and hide and let the invaders do as they wish.
our current system allows for a good dynamic battle, i for one have been in numerous battles since 2004, i have been attacked by numerous people and they even all missed! taht's right, we can have literally half a dozen people standing around waiting for their attacks to land and instead could all miss. and instead of getting a chase on, the person could hop on a vehicle and take off while everyone else is sleeping cuz they got tired of waiting for combat to resolve.
no longer limited to one per day, that was a good limit under the system currently existing, perfect in fact. i know we don't want cantr to be "REAL" but we have a lot of realism, the current combat system is much more real than this nerf comming up. in RL you can sneak like a ninja and kill someone in their sleep, no time no resolution, in cantr, one hit hit and run as you want, there is no one hit kills even if the person has slept for 10 days, the game was supposed to be 'slow paced' but now, if you attack you have to stay home on the computer and delay dinner waiting for the resolution of the hit.
this new change doesn't change battle strategy a little, it completely tosses out all battle strategies to date and everyone has to start from scratch.
making stomach capacity is NOT in any way the way to go. there are many places with animals that are very dangerous and rightfully so, but nerfing healing allowances will make these places not hard to live in but completely uninhabitable.
making a hit take more tiredness? we already removed tiredness regeneration, cantr was about free play, freedom of how you play, now the game mechanic is changing to a FORCED caste system, for combat you have no choice but t be a career warrior because of the proposed changes to the combat mechanic. even manual written for battle in game must be removed because they refer to a system impossible under these changes and therefore are ooc/oldschool documents.
stopping travel during combat. okay, interesting, where the problem comes in. you are going down a road and someone from a town comes out and hits you, now unless you wake and resolve right away and opt out of hitting back, you will be stuck in that spot where the whole town can step out all night long and everyone can swing at you and potentially kill you whereas, if you could travel like now, they would have to catch up if they are fast enough or hope you sleep when you arrive in the next town , a much more dynamic and survivable fight scenario under the current system.
these changes are going to have a lot of negative in game repercussions.
and yes i'll defend the current combat system till i am blue in the face, which won't show up very easily cuz of my ancestral tan.
we may have had complaints about about the old system but we have also had complaints about the lack of action lack of battles and motivation to be active, these new changes discourage anyone from wanting to get in a fight, and mechanically changes combat law. some people may even quit. wars will have to stop because the mechanics suddenly changed to the extreme partway through.
will we even have a date marked out for when we want to quit or move off to live a peaceful life away from our battlefields?
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viktor
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby viktor » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:55 pm

no details but i know at least one civillization that is literally destroyed by this change.
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Doug R.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Doug R. » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:55 pm

Yes, it will be announced far in advance when changes will take effect.
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Rebma
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Rebma » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:56 pm

The way it seems is that if A and B are in a fight, no one else can attack A or B. Which I think is something Viktor whined about. Are attacks queued up on A and B while they are in limbo waiting for resolve, or are they untouchable until that combat event is over?

(edited out some OT. /EchoMan)
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viktor
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby viktor » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:58 pm

(edited out some OT. /EchoMan)
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EchoMan
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby EchoMan » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:59 pm

Trying to read you post makes my head hurt. Next time, try using paragraphs and capitalization and stuff.

cantr was about free play, freedom of how you play, now the game mechanic is changing to a FORCED caste system


There will always be game mechanical limitations involved in combat, and there also is in the current system. The 1/day attack is one limitation, the tiredness is another. This system prevents the abuse in form of hit-and-run tactics, and that is something we all agreed upon have to go.

Also, this announcement is more of a general statement of in what direction we want to go with combat. Details and special case handling can (and probably will) change as we go along.
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EchoMan
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby EchoMan » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:02 pm

Rebma19 wrote:The way it seems is that if A and B are in a fight, no one else can attack A or B. Which I think is something Viktor whined about. Are attacks queued up on A and B while they are in limbo waiting for resolve, or are they untouchable until that combat event is over?

No, attacks can still be initiated with those characters, but they will have to resolve each attack in the order they are initiated.
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Doug R.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Doug R. » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:03 pm

you will be stuck in that spot where the whole town can step out all night long and everyone can swing at you and potentially kill you whereas,


-If you attack with strength of numbers, the people chasing you out onto the road will also expose themselves to counter-attack. It works both ways.

-It is possible that during playtesting, some of the issues you raised will be discovered to be real problems. If that is the case, we'll take measures to address the problems.
Hamsters is nice. ~Kaylee, Firefly
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Yaddy1
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Yaddy1 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:23 pm

I for one think this is an excellent idea. The old combat system had very little room for role-play, now combat will be much more interesting. Also it's nice that I won't be killed in my sleep so much anymore. Thank you for initiating such an ambitious project as this, I think it will truly improve the game.
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muidoido
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby muidoido » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:26 pm

the attacked char can do ANYTHING before resolving the attack?

it'll be weird if a char got his/her head chopped off by an axe while sleeping and had time to scream for help...
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muidoido
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby muidoido » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:54 pm

portuguese version: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=20605

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