Spanish Spawn Points

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Postby Pilot » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:30 pm

Yes Seko, you can do whatever you want, indeed. Infractions included. People create characters fishing for locations and you know it. You are showing with this that it's ok. Will PD have the nerve to say anything to suicidal newspams now?

One tip: take a look at your numbers....

Have you noticed how english and polish players are leaving the game nonstop? Don't you think perhaps your are doing something in an incorrect manner?

You can change the name of the Departments but without a real change using some common sense the numbers will keep sliding down.

And Doug, tell me which would be the appropriate place to discuss the way you are messing with the Spanish spawning system? I asked you some days ago in a very polite way and you locked the thread.

"Temporal" is not enough response to a patch that is fucking with the players. Go to our forum and see what they think about it. http://forum.cantr.org/viewtopic.php?t=18605

Why weren't they informed? We are 105 Spanish players. You asked the opinions in the other languages forums of 7 Swedish, 1 french staff member and the 109 portuguese. Are we second grade players or why are we being neglected this way?
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Postby Piscator » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:38 pm

I fail to see what that's got to do with this suggestion.
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Postby HFrance » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:04 pm

If you want to reduce the impacts caused by unprepared noobs in the game , I consider the Help Island suggestion (where is the link?) the best option. Because to be a veteran means much more than a privilege but a responsibility with the future of the Cantr II.
Cantr II is a social simulator. What is not working is due a problem in the society.
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Postby Zisrith » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:39 pm

Piscator wrote:I fail to see what that's got to do with this suggestion.

I don't think he cares where he posts it, he's just putting it in a thread he knows you guys are already paying attention to.
Or something like that :?
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Postby SekoETC » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:30 pm

Alf: Oh, I'm supposed to know that people create characters fishing for locations? Actually I haven't noticed that. If they do then shame on them. I think all people should at least try to play their characters and give their spawn location a chance or travel elsewhere. I have often spawned in locations that I'd been to or stayed in with other characters, and even though I've occasionally found myself cursing not another Quillanoi forest / Not another Reniov Forest, I've never let a character sleep to death. A veteran region would be a reward for players who have been faithful to Cantr and stuck around long enough without quitting, or for staff members who try to make the game better.

People have always been leaving Cantr, many of them also come back. The amount of characters in the English language group has been decreasing lately but it's not at its all-time low and for a while it was on the rise. It seems to reflect the pattern in the number of players in general. Although the numbers seem to be plummeting at the moment, my characters aren't worried about the world coming to an end. For example Klojt has gotten 11 newspawns within a week.

I can't answer for Doug if he didn't discuss the spawn locations change with the Spanish community but a lot of Spanish characters were/are living on the English region speaking English. There are characters I've traded with and I know from their accent that they are played by foreigners, but only later found out that they were actually spawned as Spanish. I don't know if they ever spoke it in their youth or rp'ed a learning process. Due to those characters a lot of Spanish characters have spawned on the Olip region and the ones who do not cheat and magically learn the language in an instant are often at a disadvantage and go wandering all over the place, most likely dying young. Without established communities it's hard for them to find work when they can't communicate with employers. I assume if their players could've made the choice, they would've rather spawned in actual Spanish towns. The spawn locations were based on where the largest active populations were, just like for the Swedish and Portuguese. They also didn't like all the towns that were chosen but they're ready to live with it. Have you actually suggested to Doug that places like RFE should be turned into spawning locations because they are well established colonies? Personally I wouldn't mind making it a spawn point but it's not my decision to make. I have no objections to there being Spanish characters on Reniov/Siom region or even in Olip west, but I don't want to see them spawning all over the place because as I mentioned above, without established communities, they would have no future. A lot of lives would be wasted. That's why sold spawn locations are better than people-centric spawning. Even from that thread you linked to, it's apparent that the people-centric spawning isn't working as it should, if a Spanish character spawns in a location with just one English character who says there has been no one else in years. That shouldn't be possible unless there were people in buildings the person didn't know about.
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Postby Joshuamonkey » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:45 pm

I'll be disappointed to find no more Spanish newspawns in Blojt Forest East. We were just in the process of establishing them, and I want my characters to learn languages (especially that one) but I can see how this is a problem.
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Postby Doug R. » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:01 pm

alf wrote:And Doug, tell me which would be the appropriate place to discuss the way you are messing with the Spanish spawning system? I asked you some days ago in a very polite way and you locked the thread.


I locked it because you hijacked the thread (just like you hijacked this one). An appropriate place is to start a new topic to discuss it, which you made no attempt to do, at least not in English.

"Temporal" is not enough response to a patch that is fucking with the players. Go to our forum and see what they think about it. http://forum.cantr.org/viewtopic.php?t=18605


I don't read Spanish. If someone from the Spanish language group would step forward and volunteer to be a Liason Officer, I would be properly informed.
Why weren't they informed? We are 105 Spanish players. You asked the opinions in the other languages forums of 7 Swedish, 1 french staff member and the 109 portuguese. Are we second grade players or why are we being neglected this way?


It was done in the best interests of the newspawns of new Spanish players so they would actually spawn in their language groups. There was nothing to discuss; it was going to happen no matter what. The game is in perpetual beta. Not every change needs to be announced or approved by the players. If the Spanish players feel that 7 fixed spawnpoints are inadequate, that is a valid argument and it can certainly be discussed.
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Postby tonidelju » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:21 am

Yo conozco RFE desde que se estableció allí la colonia hispana, se creo justo para no interferir con los ingleses, por que no podíamos comunicarnos, hemos aprendido inglés, poco a poco, y veo una injusticia que ya no tengamos nuevos nacimientos, bien follan los personajes no? Lo que yo entiendo es que se están Aplicando unas normas para una comunidad y otras normas al resto de comunidades.

[url] http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=es [/ url]

I know RFE since the colony was established there Hispanic, I just was not to interfere with the British, we could not communicate, we learned English, little by little, and I see an injustice that we no longer have new births, or screw the characters do not? What I mean is that you are applying for a community standards and other standards to other communities.
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Postby Doug R. » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:17 pm

Does RFE have a large enough ACTIVE spanish-speaking population to adequately support a spanish-speaking newbie (who can't emote in English) who spawns one of their first characters there?

And yes, we are applying different standards to different groups. This isn't about language group equity, it's about doing what needs to be done to provide new Spanish language players a meaningful gaming experience.

This is a temporary measure only, until we either 1) get a programmer available to change the spawn code to fix the cause of the problem we're trying to correct or 2) the islands with the fixed spawn points become sufficiently top heavy with characters that the normal mechanism can be turned back on.
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Postby Joshuamonkey » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:09 am

2) the islands with the fixed spawn points become sufficiently top heavy with characters that the normal mechanism can be turned back on.

I didn't think about it this way before, and in my opinion this sufficiently excuses the current solution being called "temporary." If there's more Spanish speakers in their home area, then there will be more newspawns there anyway. If Spanish speakers want to come to English islands, then they can sail over. Not allowing Spanish newspawns to spawn anywhere may be forcing them in one place, but allowing them to in many cases forces them to be in an English speaking area, when they have a right (supposedly) to a Spanish speaking area.
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Postby Pilot » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:13 pm

Doug R. wrote:I don't read Spanish.

How can a person in charge of a multilingual game give this kind of answer? If you have a real, honest and fair interest you might look for a way to reach all players. For example installing the google toolbar and with a click translate any page.

Doug R. wrote:It was done in the best interests of the newspawns of new Spanish players so they would actually spawn in their language groups.

You're doing this because of the complaints of some English players in the forums. Spanish characters sailed to the English zone and established themselves there many years ago in fair game. If you didn't want this to happen there shouldn't be the option for interaction among foreigners. You are biased in favor of your own language group and ignoring the needs of an important one: Fourth in number of players and third in number of characters.

Doug R. wrote:There was nothing to discuss; it was going to happen no matter what. The game is in perpetual beta. Not every change needs to be announced or approved by the players. If the Spanish players feel that 7 fixed spawnpoints are inadequate, that is a valid argument and it can certainly be discussed.

Spanish players feel they are being neglected because you found the time to let other language groups know about this change in their forums, listen to their opinions prior to the change and even base your decision in their opinions, but ignored our group.
French:
Doug R. wrote:We are assigning hard-coded spawnpoints to some language groups. If you think that would be appropriate for your group, please reply.
notsure wrote:Will there be two or three or how many locations, Doug?
Doug R. wrote:Well, that's the big question. I don't want to mess anything up for you guys, so leaving things the way they are is an option also.
You are talking about 5 players here. You had the time to ask them but not us that are over 100?

Portuguese:
Doug R. wrote:Please list suggestions for fixed (hard-coded) spawn points here.Can someone translate please?
Doug R. wrote:Of course things will be analyzed for spread, etc. We're just looking for your input at this very early stage.

It's often been the case where we appear to have overwhelming support for something, only to find that we don't when it's implemented. Could you please provide a list of account numbers of the players that are in agreement with your proposal? It would be like a petition.

And the Swedish were even informed of the precise fixed spawnsites:
SekoETC wrote:Den svenska språkgruppen har sex spawnplatser nu. Scerparilia, Centralplatsen, Malmhamn, Shai Klippan vid havet och Augustopolis. Kanske om du bygger en riktiga stad på den gamla ön, den kunde göras till en spawnplats. Och för närvarande, fyra personer är tillräckligt för att räknas som en riktig stad...


This measure is meant to be an OOC way to limit us in favor of the English players. Cantr is not only the English zone. Spanish characters are spreading to many other zones and you are affecting their expansion OOCly. You are slowing a language group progress and messing with the natural course of the simulator in favor of some.

We share our zone with other 3 groups and they are not limited like us. They can take over our towns by just sitting there to spawn freely while you're forcing us to move our characters OOCly: 7 sites for 15 characters each player has. If anyone starts playing it's going to be 2 characters per site if lucky to spawn in a proportional way. What will happen if the player spawns 3 or 4 in one location? Move to another place because of an unfair decision like this? To where if the player wanted to play following the spirit of the Rule? With this you're giving the other groups an unfair advantage.

This is the same as cutting an arm because of a finger infection. The solution should be focused in monitoring the behaviour of newborns of Spanish players spawned in the English cities versus their language selection, or taking English towns out of the probability of spawning Spanish characters. The reason of this to happen is self inflicted: Jos order to investigate complaints only. PD could have prevented the language breach if our hands weren't tied back then.

Doug R. wrote:2) the islands with the fixed spawn points become sufficiently top heavy with characters that the normal mechanism can be turned back on.

The Hislands are already too crowded to begin with. Again, we share the zone with 3 other language groups in a very little space, and therefore have trouble to follow the Rule. That's the main reason players are always spreading their characters to other islands.

Doug R. wrote:This is a temporary measure only, until we either 1) get a programmer available to change the spawn code to fix the cause of the problem we're trying to correct

This by Cantr standards means forever.
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Postby Doug R. » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:24 pm

Fine. I give up. This was done in the best interests of your language group, but if you are going to be so stubborn, fine. It doesn't affect my game play at all if your language group dies off because new players don't know what the hell is going on. I'll tell Seko to change it back. Alf - the responsibility for this - and any fallout from it, is all on your shoulders. I wash my hands of it.

And I did try to reach all players: It's called the Liason Officer. Not my problem if the Spanish have no interest in representing themselves. I don't have enough time to read the English parts of this forum, much less try to wade through google translated half gibberish in the foreign languages.

EDIT: I need to take it up with the rest of the GAB first - I don't run things unilaterally, I'm just impulsive so it seems that way. Also got a PM from a player saying Alf is not representing the majority in this thread. If there's anyone else that wishes their opinions to be kept private, they can email/PM me.
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Postby Joshuamonkey » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:42 am

After going through a Joshuamonkey translation:

Prisca:
It is true that there are more places habitated by Hispanics than just these islands. It is also true that many times we allow our characters to die when we see that they end up in an English area, and there are also times when they give us the "favor" of accelerating the process of our death.


Theda:
I don't have anything against the spawning of German characters, but, why can they be born in others sites (like all those concentrated in ours) when we can't spawn in others? Injustice? Abuse of power? Nos tienen manía? The English only complain about the Hispanics? Perhaps it's that only they have a voice and a vote. Are the children (niños) jealous of Cantr?


Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to be bees in a very small hive; being a tiny swarm in the midst of the rapid expansion which others enjoy will make us much more vulnerable in the face of them.


Theda's letter to Doug R. and Jos: (she posted it on the thread)
"I want to record my protest at the same time as I present my complaint about the change made by you (all the "you"s are plural) in the spawning system for those, like I, who speak the Spanish language.

From my point of view as a veteran players (and about every point of view seen) it is a completely unfair measure. They condemn us by enclosing us, taking away any possibility for expansion, but this isn't the worst part of it; in addition, such restriction doesn't apply to the characters that speak other languages, which makes our characters absolutely vulnerable in the face of the obvious advantage of the rest.

Seriously, you don't remember what happened in Europe with the Jews? I do...too much. Only, this time we are not contained for our religion or race, but for our language. What's the point of that?/What sense does this have? What will this come to afterwards, perhaps the eradication of the Spanish language from the green world of Cantr? This is what you give us to understand, and I feel greatly offended and decieved by such abuse.
If you want to eliminate the Hispanics from "your" game, please, do so directly and stop these hypocritical measures that are an offense to any person with the least intelligence.
Or is it that the Hispanics in the background interest you for selling your banners? We are made fun of and because of that we interest you?
Is it that in reality you don't want us to be erradicated but to be enclosed? We are to intelligent and superior that you feel threatened?

Believe me, like me, 99.9% of Hispanics think this way and I don't believe that they will tolerate the abuse being done to them.
A little announcement was made that you were searching for people to help in the staff, people that speak Spanish. As a veteran player of the game and because I consider myself honest, sincere, and respectful of the rules, I thought to present myself and colaborate with you for love to Cantr, but in reality, now I would be ashamed.

I pray that you consider the harshness of my protest so that you see the reality of your ridiculous and unintelligent change, your obvious offense and your abuse of power and that you please take urgent measures to sort out this grave problem and that we all return to create, trust in, and love this precious game.

PD: I only put this so that the protest is seen and so that, like tonidelju, to encourage everyone who disagrees to send their complaint. Although I love to be the queen of the bees, I prefer to be a person."
Last edited by Joshuamonkey on Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dudel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:19 am

The Polish and Dutch are a "problem" as well.

People shouldn't be "colonizing" without ACTUALLY TRYING TO DO SO (Dough said that, I think, and I agree). Having random people visit and then having a random newspawn in a town that isn't their language groupd is shitty spawning... and should be fixed.

If this was any other online game, the system would have been implemented with only the quick "This is happening now get over it" type of notice to prevent from difficulties.

In my full HONEST opinion, there should be static ISLANDS for each language group and THEN the dynamic special ed spawn system. Once a town/area/whatever is OFFICIALLY COLONIZED (Has ESTABLISHED citizens, laws, etc etc etc) there can be a note OOC and that area can be added to the "static island list".

Or there needs to be a minimal of 5 people to "get a newspawn"... or something. Let small towns die and stop from spawning people on islands like FU.
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Postby Zisrith » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:32 am

Dudel wrote:The Polish and Dutch are a "problem" as well.

People shouldn't be "colonizing" without ACTUALLY TRYING TO DO SO (Dough said that, I think, and I agree). Having random people visit and then having a random newspawn in a town that isn't their language groupd is shitty spawning... and should be fixed.

If this was any other online game, the system would have been implemented with only the quick "This is happening now get over it" type of notice to prevent from difficulties.

In my full HONEST opinion, there should be static ISLANDS for each language group and THEN the dynamic special ed spawn system. Once a town/area/whatever is OFFICIALLY COLONIZED (Has ESTABLISHED citizens, laws, etc etc etc) there can be a note OOC and that area can be added to the "static island list".

Or there needs to be a minimal of 5 people to "get a newspawn"... or something. Let small towns die and stop from spawning people on islands like FU.
To me this sounds like it would be an improvement.
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