Make bronze makeable

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MrPenguin589
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Postby MrPenguin589 » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:31 am

wichita wrote:
MrPenguin589 wrote:I think there should be two main types of metals in Cantr. We have steel, and we need another, but the other needs to be about equal to steel, but with slightly different properties.


Sounds like iron. :)


But if you had a choice between having, say, 1k of iron or 1k of steel, you would always choose steel, as it is worth more. And it's basically the upgraded version of steel.
I mean something that would take about the same time to make, but only slightly different, so that depending on what you are making, it may be better or worse.
For example, you could make it so that certain weapons or tools work better with bronze, and others work better with steel.
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Postby Nosajimiki » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:32 am

... actually steel is cheaper to make than iron under normal conditions. Currently certain things take iron and others steel. Sure, steel is good for weapons and the like, but iron is used for a lot of things that steel can not be used on like iron shields and locks.

As for other metals, I dont think Bronze needs to be made better persay, just a lot easier to make. It should IMO be cheaper and more accessable than steel if it is entended to be worse. In modern societies, bronze is not often used IRL, so ingame, there should be more places w/o easy iron access, and more bronze access to motivate bronze age societies. I also think that aluminum, the other alloy in the game, should be more versitile, and possibly cheaper. Right now it is only usable by the extreamly wealthy and in very large volumes. I'd like to see a much cheaper vehical that uses it, like an aluminum framed bike simalar to a bike cart, but faster than the other bikes for example. Maybe it could also have some application in making motor boats if they ever get added. In general, I think that all of the vehicals that currently use aluminum are rediculusly overpriced.
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Postby wichita » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:47 pm

Racetyme wrote:But then what is the point of having it, if I could just go get steel from the island I am already on, it is inferior in any case, or it should be, seeing as how it dosn't exist so it can't be tested.


DylPickle wrote:Then your character shouldn't have a need for it anyways.
Just get steel.
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Wow! I should read the beginning of drawn out threads more often. :) This summarizes a big point that Jos, I, and others have been discussing about this.


Variety. Most of the complaints I have seen have been from English zone players, whose characters live in predominantly iron and steel tech level environments. There shouldn't be a real need for bronze, if it is a cheap alternative to iron and steel...unless you just want to make bronze tools so you can save iron and steel for other projects.


I have not heard as much as I would like from some of the other regions of the game which are expanding into bronze territory. Fact of the matter is, there is a region of the game world where the resources are located with reasonably favorable proximity to one another so that making bronze is an efficient way to get a new society growing.

The younger language groups are well over three real life years behind the English islands. There is an interest for saving as much iron and steel as possible for vehicles. Dropping bronze into cheap tools, or medium level weapons before they get their buildings and smelters built, is a nice game advantage for them to help them grow more quickly.


This also gives their cultures something unique. How many centuries did the Chinese have gunpowder before the Europeans finally found out about it? It took a while for the technology to travel....


But I am starting to ramble, and this thread is going far off topic anyway and starting to touch on a few subject matters well away from the reason the topic was accepted in the first place. :)
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Postby Frits » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:09 am

Wasn't the great thing about iron, or bronze in later times, that it can be made liquid to an extent, and then molded using a large stone or indeed a metal tool into any shape desired? Limited maybe by a society's imagination. Nowadays plastics are used to that aim.

IF you'd bring that function into the game it makes every tool and weapon possible to forge with either of the 3 metals. Only thing is for example a iron crowbar will break due to the sideways force applied, probably hurting the operator as it fails. So then IG the chance of lockbreaking gets significantly lower and the char ends up with a broken tool and some damage.

This idea is leaning too far towards realism and wouldn't work IG cos people use the wiki and common sense but it would spur different societies and they could all have the chance to be successful. Only some would be without solid steel weapons and another would lack durable bronze tools.

...
I was just saying that, i didn't mean to get to a point.
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Postby formerly known as hf » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:07 pm

Bronze has been available for about 18 months.

And none has EVER been made. What more does it take to show that the current implementation needs changing?

Is it really that hard to go into the RD database and remove phosphorous and zinc from the bronze requirements?

It is painfully clear that the desire to encourage trade, the only reason I have heard zinc and phosphorous were included, has not worked. It will not work. Bronze will only ever be of use in under developed areas where they have easy access to copper.

If the change is made, bronze will be seen in-game within the week.

I'd also propose another bronze project that replaces tin with iron ore, and possibly another with nickle.
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Postby SCUBA » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:33 pm

I have seen bronze in game.

But more recepies for bronze, possibly much more expensive, without phosforus is ok with me.
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Postby Chris Johnson » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:46 pm

Yes there is bronze in game and also objects made from bronze . However not alot - the combined weight of raw bronze and all the objects made from bronze is under 2000g and you can count the number of objects on one hand (just )
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Postby formerly known as hf » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:21 pm

Ok, so the time-limit stats lie to me...

Anyways, my case still stands.

A really good implementation is going almost entirely unused.

Bronze has been around for over 18 months. One of the very first things I said back then was that the requirements were too much for something which is going to be primitive.

I was told it's to encourage trade.

I said, no one who has iron will want bronze, only those in underdevloped locations will want bronze, and, being underdeveloped, they are unlikely to have trade links.

The past 18 months have shown me to be right.

Other things will encourage exploration and trade - things which developed areas need and want. Bronze will never encourage trade as it just is not wanted by the areas which have the ability to conduct inter-island trade.

I don't know why this winds me up so, but it really really does. Probably because the fix is so damn easy, but stuborness and/or apathy are just getting in the way...
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Postby wichita » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:48 pm

English characters don't need bronze. They already have iron/steel infrastructure. The characters that need it the most are making it and using it now. We have been watching the development in those areas to see if we might need to cheapen it even further, but so far it looks like development is progressing as expected.
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:47 am

wichita wrote:English characters don't need bronze. They already have iron/steel infrastructure. The characters that need it the most are making it and using it now. We have been watching the development in those areas to see if we might need to cheapen it even further, but so far it looks like development is progressing as expected.
Not everywhere in the English lands is there a readily available iron/steel resource network. There are locations where copper and various ores/metals are much more readily available.

If the current state was expected, then I commend the forethought put into bronze - to know that it was just right an implementation for a very small group of characters 16 months down the line...

If 2 kilos and 5 tools in 18 months was expected, then fair enough then...
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Postby Gor Mar » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:48 pm

All people need is a pot, fire and some billows to melt copper. The cavemen did it so why can't cantrians?
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Postby Piscator » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:58 pm

I'm pretty sure cavemen used neither copper nor bronze and both materials are surely not the same. But it's right that making bronze should be easier.
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Postby CrashBlizz » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:12 pm

I feel that the things bronze is used for at the moment is good and doesn't really need to be changed but the process it goes through to be manufactured needs to be simplified majorly.
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Re: Make bronze makeable

Postby Rusalka » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:40 pm

I can't recall seeing phosphorus ever on polish islands, and other resources are very rare. There was an interesting suggestion about making phosphorus by burning bones. Does anywan know the chemical process involved in it?
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Re: Make bronze makeable

Postby wadko » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:53 pm

My 2 chars have phosphorus in their storages. One of them wants to sell it but no one is buying it. Iron is more popular and easier to make.

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