Item Quality - Original

[saztronic]

It stands to reason that if I expertly make a sabre, and someone else makes one awkwardly, there should be two important differences in those weapons. First, the expertly made sabre should perform better -- it should do more damage as a result of being sharper, more finely balanced, more durable, etc. Second, the expertly made sabre should deteriorate more slowly than the awkwardly made one. Presumably, its fine craftsmanship would make it less prone to decay.

Both of these things would actually go much farther toward achieving what I understand to be the orginial intent of skill levels -- that is, making it more likely that certain chars with certain skills will take up certain professions. How much more likely would this be if, when a char was an expert at making weapons, or cooking, or repairing, the results of their work was actually more efficiacious and longer lasting?

I for one, would start seeking out expert weapons makers, expert bakers, expert tailors, and you'd be on your way to a barter/trade economy that actually made some kind of sense.

EDIT: Read the thread, but also check out Doug R.'s post on Page 3. He came up with the same idea independently and describes it more articulately.

[Racetyme]

I think that this would be too hard to implement. A programming nightmare. Any programmers want to comment? Aside from that, this really goes in suggestions.

[saztronic]

Yeah, it should have been in Suggestions. If someone wants to move it, that would be good.

As for programming, I don't think it would be that hard, actually, speaking as a sometime database and SQL programmer. You'd just have to tag each item with an attribute of some kind, that would get checked when the item was used or was deteriorating. Not a walk in the park, mind you, but hardly rocket science from a programming standpoint.

Of course I've not seen the Cantr system, so I don't know for sure -- but I would think you'd be able to beta test something like this in a matter of a couple of days.

[Racetyme]

In any case, I don't like it anyway. It would mean that no one who was not expert at something would ever do it, just because they know someone else could just do it better. Suddenly you would have a large percentage of the population who discovers they have nothing of value they can contribute to society, and finds themselves at a heavy disadvantage.

[saztronic]

On the contrary. Everyone is good at something, even if it's gathering a certain resource, or working with a particular type of machinery. Very few people would find they had no niche at all.

And even if you're not good at a particular thing, you still have to do it sometimes, even now. My char might be awkward at building a hammer, but he still needs to do it, because a hammer is necessary. And he CAN do it, so it's not like he is prevented from doing something vital, it just takes him longer and has a less valuable result than it might. The item produced may not be valuable in terms of trade or barter, but that won't prevent him from making it or using it on other projects. Maybe over time he/she could trade up for a better one, by building up resources and tools and materials, or providing services, that are more valuable.

An example: I happen to have a char who is awkward at gathering cotton. It takes him forever to gather any good amount of it, which is a slow proposition to begin with even if you're good at it. But he's expert at working the machinery that processes the cotton into cloth, and at sewing the cloth into clothes. It's the only thing he's any good at, so he's a tailor by trade. He would happily trade someone finished goods for raw cotton. If someone was an expert at gathering cotton and could get a lot of it quickly, but bad at making clothes, and my char made high-quality items quickly, then the trade would be more attractive to them both.

Not the best example, since clothes don't deteriorate and aren't demonstrably better or worse, one piece against another. But you get the idea. Make it limestone, wood, and shovels, maybe, and it makes more sense.

Another thread entirely would be why my iron shield crumbles to dust inside of two years, but my cotton t-shirt is stain and wear free after sixty years. Must be made of mithril cotton.

[saztronic]

AND, I might add that some people are of less use to society than others, IRL as in the game. Not intrinsically bad if the gist of the game is to experiment with societies -- what do people do if they can't contribute meaningfully to society? Are they marginalized? Disgruntled? Become thieves? Radicals and revolutionaries? Vagrants? All good RP'ing fodder.

[Racetyme]

That dosn't mean I want a character who has to do everything themselves, just because they are not of high enough skill level to make anything with any trade value. It would make everything twice as long, and I would just end up letting those characters sleep to death, it is not particularly interesting to suck at everything, and still try to get things accomplished.

[Pie]

well... i like it.. but it does sound dificult to program.

unles...

WE MAKE A NEW CIND OF EVERYTHING!!!!

there could be three catigorys that everything goes into... basicly... sucky... ok... and AWESOM!! Such as a sucky bow.. an ok bow.. or an AWESOM BOW!!!

and if it is sucky.. well.. ITS SUCKY.


nah... i really like this thing.. but i just don't see how it could work.

[kabl00ey]

In any case, I don't like it anyway. It would mean that no one who was not expert at something would ever do it, just because they know someone else could just do it better. Suddenly you would have a large percentage of the population who discovers they have nothing of value they can contribute to society, and finds themselves at a heavy disadvantage.

Sorry, I just read this and had to post, ignoring what may or may not have been said after this.

Welcome to a market economy! That's what's called comparative advantage in economicaspeak.

If you're better than JimBob at making sabres, and he's better than you at harvesting rice. Wham! You'll make sabres, he'll make rice. You'll both trade, yada-ya and both people are happy. This is called absolute advantage.

If JimBob whoops you at making sabres, and whoops you even harder at harvesting rice, JimBob is better off harvesting rice, telling you to make sabres, and trading you rice for sabres. That's called comparative advantage.

That's the theory at least.
That's based on 'perfect information' and the 'rational choice' model, which, frankly, doesn't work as efficiently as some people would have you think, in my opinion.

Anyway - I agree with the idea. That'd be a very effective step to making true markets. People don't react that well to 'time inconsistency' problems....i.e. currently chars with a poor skill is only penalised with regards to one with a high skill by the amount of time it takes them. Because to all intents and purposes Cantrians live forever, the only impetus to acknowledge that deficit in skill is your real life impatience (the only exception to this I can think of is whereby a business/clan/group tells people to only work in the areas they are better at).

Time inconsistency problems are poorly signaled and dealth with in real life, but are, I think, much worse in Cantr, so other methods will be much more effective.

Go this idea.

[kabl00ey]

That dosn't mean I want a character who has to do everything themselves, just because they are not of high enough skill level to make anything with any trade value. It would make everything twice as long, and I would just end up letting those characters sleep to death, it is not particularly interesting to suck at everything, and still try to get things accomplished.

Do you actually have a character that is 'awful' at everything? Even if they have one skill of ....*he checks his chars' skills spreadsheet*...about 22 in total, above 'awkward', then they'll make things faster, better, stronger, more efficient, more nutritious etc. than the person who only has 'awkward' in that skill.

The chances of a char having 'awkward' in every skill is astronomical, but hey, if it happens, do as saztronic said and RP it. In real life some people suck at some stuff, and others suck at other things. They deal with it, and I'm sure your chars can too.

[Yoldash]

I support the idea

Its a good and meaningful suggestion in my opinion. For details:

With my programing experiences, I believe it can be implemented but it may be hard (since don't know anything about our code). Using tags can solve the problem. If the effects of items are numerical all, a tag can multiply it for example between 0.5 and 1.5. But the main progress will be adding this tag to the main activity codes, since there's not a such thing currently and making the arrangements. At least, it must be added roadmap..

For people with or without skills.. as kabl00ey said.. its life. It was like that for the last 10,000 years for homo sapiens. and it looks like.. it is working. People do not contribute to life in same rate as others. And some may get depressed for their lack of innovation or talent. Some end their life with a suicide. Some accept the situation and continue to follow a crude path of a boring one with low-cost jobs, no relaxations and sorrow.... still the systems is like this and it doesn't look like it will differ (thoughts of a depressed character, first voice )

In our island, in early days there was two spawn points and due to genetic characteristic transfer and the intial values of elders, the two town really get different skills, while the characters of the same area have similar skills. And and important note was, one town was realy superior to the other. Still it never become a problem for us... all the characters find out a profession for themselves. Even if your charactes all your skills are awkward still you can be a postman, a ship captain, a transporter, guide, militia, etc. Also for genetics, we may see it as a cultural effect.. like militaristic cultures (Japan, Vikings, Turks), or industrial cultures (Germany), people with high physical stats (Scandinavian) relatively. Thats also the situation that you prefer a electronical equipment made in Japan rather to China if you are looking for quality, and reverse for economy..

Talked too much

Final word .. Lets implement this (if we are able to due to programming), it will be better.

[creepyguyinblack]

As for programming, I don't think it would be that hard, actually, speaking as a sometime database and SQL programmer. You'd just have to tag each item with an attribute of some kind, that would get checked when the item was used or was deteriorating. Not a walk in the park, mind you, but hardly rocket science from a programming standpoint.

Of course I've not seen the Cantr system, so I don't know for sure -- but I would think you'd be able to beta test something like this in a matter of a couple of days.

Saztronic, I'd reccomend applying for programming if you have the time, energy and desire to see this come about. I'd like to see this in game now, it'd be interesting for rulers to have to figure out how to best use their people.

[Shaderon]

Well I love it and think it will make the weapons and tools etc more realistic and promote a good society. All th reasons I can think of are explained by the last two posters, Kabl00ey and Creepyguy and I can also picture how to do it in the datebase.... as was said I'm sure an extra flag or attribute would do it.

Anyway... just voicing support *crawls back into her sickbed*

[Chris Johnson]

From a programming outlook anything could be implemented - it's just that some things are harder than others.

My first reaction was that this would be reasonably easy ...but on reflection ... its not. there are a great number of factors to take into account .

1) Variable deterioration is the easiest of these to implement and wouldn't pose great problems - but see point 3 below

2) Variable effectiveness would only be easily implemented for weapons and tools used in combat - All other tool use situations don't check for a particular tool , just the presence of any tool, of the required type nor do they control the speed of most non-gathering projects - this will have to been implemented

3) What defines a high or low quality tool - yes this is simple with something like a bone knife where the only input is some small bones, but what about a complex modular tool, what's the over all quality of a sword made with a low quality hilt and a high quality blade ?
Or what's the contribution which comes from the Expert, Skilled and Awkward workers all working on the final assembly of an item ?

4) Skills - currently skills are quite Generic - Tool Manufacturing and Weapons Manufacturing - but would an Expert Bowyer really be an Expert Swordsmith ? .. will we need to design a whole new level of sub-skills ?

[Talapus]

The biggest problem I see is that people cannot advance in their skills (at least not significantly, even over a large expanse of time), and that people are just spawned with skills ranging into the "master of the trade" level. What would better, is if all newspawns started with awkward or novice skills, and that their "aptituded" (what is currently skill levels) for each kind of activity determines how fast a person can train up their skill (a person with a very low aptitude would take 15 years to advance 1 category, while a person with a very high aptitude would only take 2 years. Some skiils might naturally advance faster then others, such as tailoring advancing faster then mining for example). In real life you can't just expect a certain percent of people to be a master blacksmith when they have had no experience before. If this could be integrated into the current skills system, it would would force people to have to train new recruits, and search for those that might eventually be masters in their trade. The only problem being that older characters would have a natural advantage over newer characters, which although is the way the world works in real life, may be undesirable for game balance. If this were the way things worked, I think it would be wonderful having skills play a bigger role in the quality and such of the project results.