Cantr II Discussion Forum

I don't know if anyone out there watches this show (arguably the best on television for the last two seasons), but last night's episode made me philosophical.

Cantr now is, arguably, a post-apocalyptic world. It is a primitive place yet is full of cars and radios, features whole swaths of abandoned towns, and survival of the fittest is the general rule. Characters are created, in general, sharing their player's morals and political sensibilities, yet there are no (or few) in-game institutions, theologies or philosophies to justify them.

Last night, when Dale was preaching that, if they killed that guy, it would mean the civilized world they knew was dead, it struck me that Cantrians are in exactly the same boat. Characters have these inherited sensibilities that have difficulty standing up in Cantr's tribalistic world, leading to the vast amount of hypocrisy that is seen often transpiring all over Cantr's torus.

If the Walking Dead were Cantr, and the situation was the same, would we have killed that guy? Yes, I think we would have. Odds are, we would have left him behind at the scene of the attack, and never had this problem.

I'm not sure what I'm saying with all this, except maybe, if there is ever an apocalypse, maybe Cantr players are better mentally prepared for it than most.

Not to ignore the point, but I'm going to ignore the point for one post here.

This whole last couple of episodes has pissed me off in that nobody points out, not even the kid himself in begging for his life that HIS OWN PEOPLE HAD LEFT HIM FOR DEAD. How much loyalty could he really feel towards them, versus the people that had risked their own lives to save his? Especially if they just let him stay at the farm.

Another thing that irked me, while probably even being a believable piece of stupidity and hypocrisy, was that this mysterious group was willing to risk their lives against intelligent opponents of unknown number and capability to avenge dead members of their groups, but was unwilling to risk their lives against predictable, stupid opponents of roughly known number and capability in order to save a living member of their group.

I think the most direct similarity between it and cantr may have been that, people risking their own lives just to get some revenge. Even if that revenge only consists of shooting off a the mouth.

Yeah. That is the natural assumption, that he would want to stay with them, but...

1) They can't watch him 24/7
2) They don't know if he left anyone in that group behind that he would rather escape to go back for (girlfriend, etc).

I do agree that most likely, he would have joined their group, BUT, with so much at stake, how can they risk it? it's not like they're moving. They're sitting ducks, completely exposed to a human incursion. I honestly think Rick's first option was the best choice, excepting that fairly large (and unknown) problem that he knew Maggie. By settling down on that farm, they have so much more to lose.

I disagree with #1, because you don't need to watch him if he doesn't have a reason to betray you, but #2 is definitely a good point that I hadn't considered earlier. I am still surprised that nobody would have tried to defend him the way I mentioned though, especially himself, even if someone objected to that defense and shot it down.

Sorry, I should clarify that bit about #1 . When I said especially if you let him stay on the farm, I didn't mean because you could watch him, but because if you kicked him out, I could possibly seeing him still leading his people there if it was the only way he'd wind up with a safe place to stay since apparently his people didn't have one, and his safety might override anything he feels towards the people that saved him. Plus, he might go back to the group for his own safety, and be unwillingly coerced or tortured to give up the location of the farm.

How can you know that he has no reason to betray you? Honestly, his interaction with Carl pretty much cemented in my mind that he can't be trusted. I think if Rick and Shane knew about what was said, the guy would be dead.

As for defending himself, he's clearly not bright. He panicked and jumped off a roof onto a spiked fence. He told them exactly the information he shouldn't have...twice (knowing Maggie and that he witnessed a gang rape and didn't do shit to stop it)...He's generally pathetic, in no way endearing himself to anyone or showing that he could be an asset. The only thing he did in his favor was starting to cry when the gun was pointed at his head.

Now, what the hell was Dale thinking anyway? When I see an eviscerated cow, I pull my gun and start looking for the zombie, putting distance between myself and the cow at the same time. Then again, Dale always was best at standing around with that indignant look on his face (like someone left a bad fart and he can't figure out who did it).

RedQueen.exe wrote:Sorry, I should clarify that bit about #1 . When I said especially if you let him stay on the farm, I didn't mean because you could watch him, but because if you kicked him out, I could possibly seeing him still leading his people there if it was the only way he'd wind up with a safe place to stay since apparently his people didn't have one, and his safety might override anything he feels towards the people that saved him. Plus, he might go back to the group for his own safety, and be unwillingly coerced or tortured to give up the location of the farm.

True. I think what this illustrates very clearly is that there are only two real options - accept him, or kill him. With so many obstacles to accepting him, killing him is the safest and easiest option. I don't think anyone there -wanted- to kill him (except maybe Shane), but there's a cold, pragmatic reasoning about it that points everyone in that direction. If you include him, he could run off and betray you. If he runs off and betrays you, he might find his people. If he finds his people, you're guaranteed to die. Is it worth that risk?

Now, if they had a secure place they could hold him, I could see holding him for say, 30-60 days, to make sure his people are gone. But they don't...

Doug R. wrote:How can you know that he has no reason to betray you? Honestly, his interaction with Carl pretty much cemented in my mind that he can't be trusted. I think if Rick and Shane knew about what was said, the guy would be dead.

Unfortunately I missed that entire conversation, as I had got up to do something else or something.

I will agree though, that he did seem the type that would do anything to save his own skin. That wouldn't be enough to keep me trusting him within the group. (Though I certainly wouldn't take him on any expeditions where you might lose him and he runs into his old group again, or some other group he might betray you to), but it does completely rule out sending him away.

Doug R. wrote:Then again, Dale always was best at standing around with that indignant look on his face (like someone left a bad fart and he can't figure out who did it).

Now, that is an awesome bit of imagery.

Now I want to see the show! I have never heard of it, is it American?

Me too.

Yep, it's a American, based on a comic of the same name. You can buy all the episodes from Amazon, for $1.99 each, of the whole season for $9.99 (it's worth it!).

Disclaimer: It may not be available for you non-Americans due to licensing bull crap.



I should state up front, that while zombies kick ass and all, the story is about the characters. There just happen to be zombies all over the place. That's why it's so good.

No plot spoilers, I promise:

Exactly. I am so pleased with the show, because so many things like that turn into pieces of sensationalized garbage. It is not a zombie-movie turned into a show, it is a drama that happens to use a zombie apocalypse as a means to create tension. From what I've read about The Walking Dead graphic novels, it seems to hold true to the author's intent. He had a strong interest in capturing the human element, the stories that never get told in other zombie horror.

I also like that it does a great job at times of almost-Lovecraftian suggestion, where less is more and the viewers imagination is turned against them. One of the most chilling moments in the show was when they were scavenging on the on-ramp mid season-2 and they showed the blooded, clawed up car seat. That one shot told an awful story of its own.

If anyone winds up liking it, I would also recommend American Horror Story. While a little more ridiculous than TWD, it is absolutely incredible in its own unique ways and the acting is phenominal. I was very pleased to see these two attempts to make horror-themed dramas without being campy and silly.

Doug, RedQueen...you two really just need to go ahead and read the comics. Not disagreeing with the statement that the show is the best on tv right now, but it pales in comparison. At first I liked the fact that the show and the books only followed the same basic plotline because it meant that I wouldn't already have everything spoiled for me, but after this last episode...man, I don't know...all I could manage to do in reaction to the end of that was to laugh.

I actually have like the first 2-3 series of the comics, and just haven't got around to reading them.

Too much LoL.

I watched the WD season 1 and it was pretty epic. However, I've heard from a friend of mine that the season 2 is pretty boring and full of relationship problems instead of zombies. Is this true?