Your ideal "crafting" in a game..

[nateflory]

Just tossing out things that have been on my mind recently, and to further a little creativity exercise that my friend and I were doing this week.

What would your "dream crafting process" be like for a game?

Would it be like Cantr's basic tools, with resources making static items?
Would it be like Cantr's complex tools, with "parts" made from resources being made into final products?
Would it be completely different, such as researching recipes, using semi-random algorithmic combinations?
Would you just not have crafting, and simply find "random tools/stuff" as loot that you could then trade/auction among players?

Sky's the limit, lets hear your ideas (can be taken from other games. My own game-XP is sadly low-level)

My favorite idea from our brainstorming:
Random stuff is flagged with potential properties and strengths, which are combined as "half-finished parts" to make a whole. To make a knife, you need a "handle" and a "blade". Something weak like bones can be used for both, but result in a weak knife that breaks easily. Giant beetle mandables also have 'blade' properties, so you could make a bone-handle-beetle-blade knife that is stronger. This lets people customize their "gear" which show up in the item description (like how personal descriptinos of cantr chars work). ie: A [Knife], with [bone] handle and [meteoric-iron] blade.

This would require every single item in hte database to have a ton of "allowable part-property" to allow it to be used as _XYZ_ parts, but sounded interesting to me, at least. Not sure how ResourceDept here handles things, but I beleive it might be similar, letting Cantr check your inventory for "hammer" when building a wooden house, regardless of the exact tool (stone hammer, bronze, etc)

Lets hear your thoughts!!

[SekoETC]

Well recently RD added all sorts of handles and shafts, but it would be cool if the end product displayed which type of components were used, and you could also use a wider range of materials (copper, silver knives for example). The softness of the material would determine how fast it went dull or lost its shape, and the efficiency would also decrease when it was dull, so edged weapons and tools wound require occasional sharpening. Some of the material would be lost during the sharpening process and this would increase the chance of the blade chipping and becoming useless.

Also joints would get wobbly in use and items would be likely to break apart into their components. Stuff might require things like glue or screws to hold them together, and if an item fell apart, screws and other small parts would have a chance to go missing, especially if outdoors.

Projects would have an option to add all that's needed even if they had already been started earlier, or you could add multiple components at once like you can currently do actions on multiple notes.

Some sort of mass production should be possible, at least for small items, and things like screws, nails, buttons etc. should stack.

Allowing custom descriptions on items like in FTO should be good, but if someone reported abuse, it should actually get handled.

Maybe there would be an option to add a random resource to an item and it would show up on the item's info page, and you could describe in the custom description how it was added, for example cloth wrapped around the hilt or gems embedded in an item. If they were listed on an info page, people looking at it would be able to tell which resources have actually been added and be able to report abuse if the custom description mentioned resources that weren't actually used. People who included resources that weren't actually used would lose their right to describe things.

It would also be cool if there could be edible items such as meals, cakes, sandwiches and so on. Either there would be presets like vegetable goes for potatoes, carrots etc. and you could use any vegetable or then you could mix anything with a nutritional value and the game would calculate the nutritional value of the combined product. The final product could also be given a custom description.

[nateflory]

That would be really cool.

I'm also curious how crafting happens in other games, or if you'd be building something from scratch. (I am making a game)
How would you do it, or prefer it from another game? (not related to Cantr)

[SekoETC]

If I made a game, I'd pretty much do it like the way I described here for Cantr, but I'd rather call them unfinished objects like in FTO rather than projects. People could make plans for what they're going to do, but these plans wouldn't be visible to others unless explained, and the game could keep track of people's supposed language learning process so that if the characters originally spoke different languages, the explanation would most likely get lost in translation if one of the people hadn't registered as learning the languages for many years. Also characters would most likely have an intelligence stat and if the project was too complicated, stupid or unlearned characters couldn't understand it even after receiving an explanation. Simple projects could be explained by showing in practice so it would be possible to teach foreigners and mentally limited people that way, but the ability to use a common language would increase the chance of everything being understood correctly. If someone started assisting on a project without the project initiator explaining the plans to him, he would either have to only do what he sees the initiator doing, which would only work for easy and repetitive things, or assume what the plan might be, in which case the end results might be different than the initiator originally thought. For example if they were building a house and the plan wasn't explained, the assisting worker could either help the other person carry planks and hold them in position while they're being nailed, or he could go about independently building another wall while the first worker built another one, and if the first worker had decided in his plan that the house is going to have say, three windows on the south-side and the second worker didn't know about that or take it into account, the second worker could go on building without leaving a hole for windows because he was using his own plan. The first worker could choose to keep an eye on other people joining the project and complain to them if their work conflicted with his original plan, but this would reduce his own work efficiency. So a functional building group would have a foreman who knows the plan and explains it to the builders, and is automatically set to explain the plan to new workers joining the project and drive away workers who work against the plan in spite of having the plan explained to them. Plans could also be written down into books and blueprints, but reading would need to be learned through the mechanics like foreign languages were. There could be a scrambler for texts to be used for people who haven't quite learned to read yet. One problem is that if blueprints and such were only meant for educating characters and read mechanically rather than requiring the player to read them, most likely people wouldn't add their own freeform writing to them but only let the game produce an abstract blueprint object, but people could be encouraged to include a descriptive text anyway to make it appear more personal.

I would also like to have resource processing that involved putting stuff inside, near or upon objects and having the environment affect them. Think for example putting bread in an oven or chunks of ore around a fire. Let's say you'd keep grapes and flour in the same container and grapes often have yeast spore on them, and when you made a mixture of the flour and water, it would have the yeast spores in it and would start rising, even though the characters couldn't see the yeast spores. I'm not quite sure if it would work that way in real life but it sounds like it might. That would allow accidental invention and even the players wouldn't know how it happened. Also things could get tainted due to microbes that were recorded in the database but not visible to characters unless they had worked long enough to cause things like mold or rotting. Mostly this is bad but it could lead into inventing things like buttermilk and blue cheese.

[nateflory]

wow, that sounds really really neat (complex, but neat).

For my own game, I am already trying to get a language parser working, so each of the three "races" has their own language that can be learned, and initially was "gibberish" to other races, with a slow transition to every other word "correct", and eventually full translation of events.

As for crafting, I'm still totally up in the air, and seeking other brainstorming ideas.
Reply, Cantrians! I know you are a creative bunch.

[Gran]

Crafting should be dynamic as possible or fully dynamic, with materials distinguished by set characteristics ( hardness, ductibility, heat capacity et cetera ), with characters being able to fully manipulate this objects in all set dimensions and to reproduce all previously made objects by either inquiring into its workings or from a set blueprint. Item-specific skills wouldn't be quite possible, so rather a task-specific skill, where the repetition of a certain task would increase the character's proeficiency at that trade, increasing yield and quality over time.

As Seko noticed and gave to notice, productive systems end up tying up with knowledge systems. I haven't thought up to all possibilities in this matter, and I'm far away from it. But at least two principles come to my mind:

First, all actions are performed by an aware character. No action can be perfomed by that character without previous knowledge of it's possibility. This prevents 'leaping through' the learning process.

Second, just as characters are barred of building every buildable item by the need of previous knowledge, they should be barred of acquiring all of what is knowledgeable without experience or transfer of information.

Frankly, all these things simply boil my reasoning. I spent more than one afternoon fidgeting with concepts trying to make my perfect building game. I wouldn't qualify the effort as vain, but it's mostly abstract.

[nateflory]

With cantr down, a great time for me to update my own little attempt at a game.
Managed to get the "language mixer-upper" function working semi-appropriately. It's a bit random, since whole-word swapping is buggy, but I may just keep it.

These crafting ideas are good, but are boiling my own brain trying to figuer out how it would be implimented properly in DB/code form. *sigh* maybe I'll stick so something a bit easier... PHP gurus Activate (and PM me? pretty please)

Nate's game features:
* - chat, in one of three "languages". Period. *sigh*
building and moving and stuff to come eventually.

[Gran]

This discussion seems to pop out spontaneously.

And I think I finally generated a pretty sweet idea on the subject. Perhaps coupled with a SMAC like directional research and tech tree divided into categories.

*comtemplative*

[SumBum]

It's been a long time since I played, but a crafting system similar to Asheron's Call 2 maybe...and extend it to things like cooking, building, etc. By allowing anyone with any skill level to make everything possible, specializing in a "career" and having a market for your goods/services will never happen in Cantr (or FTO). AC2 has the possibility to fail at creating something (which then makes people more likely to seek out a very highly-skilled char to improve or imbue their rare finds), and I think also a smaller chance for an item to get an excellent random boost to its stats.

Simple tools and weapons that wear/break fast should be within every char's grasp to make. Better/stronger/longer-lasting items should only be made available in the build menu after a char has gained a certain amount of experience in that skill set. That idea could be applied to any skill. People can eat raw foods, but their hunger would not be satisfied for very long and it would require more "bulk"; skilled cooks could make more nourishing foods that take up less space. Anyone can make a rickety shack, but skilled builders could make castles. And so on....

You could make the system as complicated as you wanted with different metals creating stronger/sharper tools or weapons and requiring different levels of skill to make things with them.

This isn't exactly a complete idea and may be confusing, but I can't really work on it anymore right now. To be continued....

[mojomuppet]

It takes less effort to steal that stuff from you neighbors. Also while thinking that your char is going to be the town cook and maybe have even held true to that for years, as time goes on other things become more important like repairs( this must be done for high end items the rest I let rot to make something for someone to do) or replacing locks to keep the smuck that ran off with all the keys from coming back. I have many chars that live in places that have been ransacked by pirates and there are only a few people ( 2 to 4 chars). Making Cantr more difficult I dont think is good idea because if you have 5 or 6 good strong chars, its likely you have that many more doing something helpful in another town keeping their nose to the grindstone and pushing progress forward(or you should). There arent that many towns that need buildings anymore if they have enough people to support a builder anyway. These same towns have piles of weapons and what not its just a matter of the person that holds them trusting you enough to hand one over. My suggestion...if you are the town leader use the talent you have on hand to make things and store them. I have a char that leads a town that had 20 people in it just last Cantr year, now I think it has 5. But when it was an active town they stored and stored things, made weapons, fuel, food, ect. Now even though there is only a few of them they really arent suffering for anything. What do they do now? Cause shit for the town next door because they can. Why? Because my char has lived long enough to hold a distaste for them in his mouth that wont go away, and the rping is why Im here. The rest is just gravy.

[SumBum]

I thought this was a hypothetical if-I-could-make-a-new-game-what-would-people-want discussion. I mentioned Cantr and FTO as references for what I consider a lackluster, dull implementation of skills/crafting (don't get me wrong, I do LOVE Cantr ). Personally, I sometimes need my chars to have a purpose beyond being the town comedian/loser/leader/drama queen. It's very frustrating to be given the title of "town weaponsmith" or "town cook" only to watch as other chars decide it's easier for them to just make things themselves instead of contracting a deal with the appointed person to do it. I've played games where skill level truly equaled expertise and it's a nice feeling when people seek you out from all over the game world to get something special made. It gives skill sets a real purpose and can give chars a purpose that enhances the RP.

[mojomuppet]

There are chars in Cantr that only do one job. You just have to know where to find them. I know doctor, a weapons man, a talior, LOL a car jacker, one that does nothing but kill newspawn that dont speak her language...they are all out there.

[nateflory]

What SumBum said, this was a "Nate is cobbling together what might become another online game" and was jsut brainstorming (and recruiting your brains to storm) for what might be possible to do, if making something from scratch. Particularly since I have not played many RPG type games with crafting, so was not even sure what has/not been done successfully before.

[Alladinsane]

How about a game that is immune to Hack attacks?